Wednesday, December 26, 2007

Muslim Congress-12/26/07-2

Muslim Congress-12/26/07-2

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opinions are your own,
moderator's comments are appended with each comment.
  1. Aziz - Morality misplaced ::
  2. Ovais Hasan :: Re: Criticism of article on Hijab
  3. Aishah Schwartz : RESPONSE>>>Abuse of Women ::
  4. Shamim Siddiqui :: Re: Criticism of article on Hijab ::
  5. Javed jamil :: Criticism of article on Hijab ::
  6. Zeba Salim :: Criticism of article on Hijab ::

CRITICAL NOTE :: Every Muslim ought to have the knowledge of Islam. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in his last sermon was very clear - for us to follow the book, and he did not assign any one to interpret it for us. Bottom line? On the day of reckoning, individual is responsible for his actions, not his/her teacher, mother, Imam or kids. Finding the truth is one's own responsibility. Zeba has a comment about Dr. Jamil's knowledge, believe me that question goes to me, you and every one.

Personally, I am not a scholar in Islam per se, I do not have a degree in Islam nor have I gone to a seminary. That is the beauty of Islam, you grab the concepts and understand it from an universal point of view and look at the book, some eighteen translations are available for each verse, study them in the light of justice and peace for every human on the earth. God is not exclusively for Muslims, God belongs to all his creation and every one of us is his creation. Mr. Waleed Kavalec of this forum maintains a website that gives 17 translations of Qur'aan verse by verse, go to it has a good search engine as well as the pronunciation alternatives. Insha Allah, we will have one as well at whenever we can afford to.

By the way, I check the emails twice a day and respond. I am a volunteer just like you and kindly don' expect me to post or respond to you instantaneously.

Mike Ghouse

From: Aziz - Morality misplaced

Mr Jamil condescending response to Madame Zeba is not a new trait, women are emotional and can only respond in anger is old chauvinist retake.and can't see the threat posed by Western infidels.May be one day Mr Jamil will wake up in the morning and write a book "evil men" or "the rapist" and actually put the responsibility where it belongs.

Mr Jamil, in his response is trying to remake Sodom and Gomorrah 3,000 years plus history of Good and Evil, while we are still waiting for miracle of a sinless world and a perfect human being. Mr Jamil, xxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx his books which contain all the answers to human problems, Mr Jamil talks about what he views as subjective truth as if human suffering is not natural and any human death can be attributed to western culture and decadence within the framework of language "I only attack Westernism that has now assumed global proportions; he likes to throw out the number of Deaths, associating causality to "westernism" neither West or East is an "Ism" but simply a geographical position, such definitions simply meant to perpetuate an ideology based on cultural and religious conflicts, To natural deaths and suicides might not rank high in his value system because normative is not natural and common good is subject to "Westernism" and the universe revolves around the axis of market forces, these market forces are not Babylonian but Westernism the great Satanical force, and natural needs of consumer makes human being evil as the prophets of religion have decreed and the rational conscience of a consumer is also apparently a victim of Market forces and intellect is unnatural while he refuses to recognize supply and demand is natural, when a baby needs milk the milk will appear it is called human ingenuity. His grand design of Moral Code is the Quran and the Islamist or Islamic applied Science.But this is essentially a writers delusions at worst, at best the words Jihad against the infidel has digressed to "westernism"

His rank bad and evil is Hiroshima, and 9/11 would be a comparative misdemeanor. Mr Jamil is part of the problem not the solution, what is natural can not simply resolved by religion, or new revelations, his sliding scale of what is good and evil can be only defined in term of Western "ism", and not Islamism

Mr Jamil, Holds that most freedoms , If tolerated anywhere, would jeopardize the orderliness of the Universe, such aversion to disorder is the real motive of his Faith that lies in unqualified determinism. yet he fails to recognize a free act is an event without cause, an exception to the law of causality. He expects a principle uniformity in natural occurrences and contradicts it by absolute false dichotomy and I quote him "The most dangerous choices that are being given to the people at the behest of the market forces......" He defines choices as something given by outside forces, In essence failure to make rational decision, and rejects rationality and intellect itself as natural cause, he says we are forced to make choices of nakedness, a natural causation, what he should be saying, Clothing like Veil is forced upon us by market forces, and each and every data and premise of argument is similarly questionable, His logic amounts to nothing short of malpractice.

Anti western talking points these are his words check the archives, I think someone asked him what control parameters were used arrive at such data and statical. prevalence in Muslim countries against reported data from the west, now that would be interesting to see Mr Ahmedinijad actually admit there are gays in Iran or Saudis admit there are gays there, I suppose Middle East is not west and being Gay is the fault of West too.

* choice of being naked

*The choice of sex outside marriage.

* the choice of becoming part of commercial sex, either as the seller or purchaser; (promiscuity, promiscuity, homosexuality, etc kill more than 5 million people every year through AIDS)

* the choice of drinking alcohol and smoking (Combined they kill more than 4.8 million);

* the choice of killing oneself; and above all; (Kill more than 2.8 million);

* the choice of killing one's children (abortion). (Kills more than 60 million premature children.);

* the choice of gambling. (It kills more than 2 million)

His Utopian Islamic society is seriously flawed, human beings anywhere in the world have same characteristics as a Christian a Hindu or Muslim his anti west logic amounts to nothing short of malpractice. Mr Jamil as a talented person should spend his time on promoting uniting people East or West than wast time on divisive issue blaming the west or women who don't adorn Hijab as victims of the west is ludicrous and is simply denying culpability, the real victims of human rights are women irrespective if they wear Hijab or not, such arguments that if Hijab was fashion it would be mass production is nothing but a straw men argument by Mr Jamil.

Most men become defensive when it comes to gender violence and simply go into denial mode, How many cases of rape gets reported in Muslim countries in a culture of shame an stigma and 200 lashes, amplified by arguments women who choose not to wear Hijab have a morality issue i.e western women, Any fool can see from the responses to Zeba Salim how much respect these men have for womens old tradition of gang busta is alive and well called male patriarchy., There are prostitutes in Muslim countries wearing Hijab that provide service for the holier than cow men and all kinds of immorality has been going on in Muslim countries for time immemorial, yet it is westernisms fault, It is amazing to see medieval arguments from the land which saw nudity as form of spiritual art sculptured in the temples like India depicting all kinds of nudity as pornography by Mr. Jamil, just another evidence of reverse evolution.

Why is a women who chooses not to wear Hijab lack moral value, not a single logical response,,,,xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx , just another westernism a commercial utility.

Moderator - i) Dr. Jamil will respond to your comments - ii) Dr. Jamil has never attempted to sell his books, as much as I know, on the reverse, people ask him for his books, hence I have deleted those sentences iii) Agree with you that prostitution and Men's lewd behavior are as old as human existence - it has nothing to do with west or east -it is a human issue iv) Concur with you that humans are driven by temptations that are forbidden and religion indeed is a constant reminder to them to stay out of it, every religion for that matter.


From: Ovais Hasan :: Re: Criticism of article on Hijab

"An evil is an evil whenever and wherever it exists and whoever is involved in it" , I totally agree with Mr. Javed Jamil, we just can't call an Evil a Good way of living because of our environment is indulge in it. The irony is that it has been accepted and is considered a freedom of expression, on the other hand if a man or women try to be modest they are stamped as old fashioned species of the past. LOL


Moderator - your black and white view adds to the diversity of thought.


From: Aishah Schwartz : RESPONSE>>>Abuse of Women

 "...figures suggest that a woman is safer from rape in Saudi Arabia than in South Africa. It is also possible that since the rapes are a rarity in Saudi Arabia, each one gets the headlines..."

RARE? SERIOUSLY? Please, by all means, remember that "news" is highly monitored in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia - and just because you can't see it "statistically" doesn't mean it is not happening or that these women are any safer than women living elsewhere. It is extremely rare that any case or form of abuse manages to wriggle its way out of the Kingdom, and I am sure there are plenty of Saudi women journalists who can attest to this; most certainly the abuse is not restricted merely to the unfortunate maids hauled in from overseas to slave for 14-18 hours a day-straight for mere pennies, and who sleep on floors under stairwells at night...I lived there for a year and saw it first-hand...even in a hospital where these poor women worked had to spend from their own pocket to eat food from the that at the end of the day could have served them vs. being thrown out in the trash. My closest friend (while in KSA), also happened to be a gynechologist (the only female in the hospital...tell me she wasn't busy...omg...there were 8 other obgyn's - ALL MEN...go figure...) - and to this day I know it is only by the mercy of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala that she is able to sleep at night for all she has had to see...and treat...abuse of women knows no boundaries...or, sadly, religion...

Moderator - Aishah, you have made a good point indeed. When I was writing the rebuttal to Ayaan Hirsi Ali's "Silence of Moderates" I compiled that statistics from FBI, interpol and other sources. That is the only available quotable statistics on the market, facts certainly vary and we need more information. You are our specialist on Saudi Arabia and hope you can find alternative statistics to set the record right.


From: Shamim Siddiqui :: Re: Criticism of article on Hijab

Mohtram Ghouse Bhai, ASA

Shukrun for this multidimensional discussion, originated by my beloved Br Dr. Jamil, loaded with both relevant and irrelevant comments.

The issue must be restricted only to one basic point as to whether a sister, while leaving her home should cover her "Zeenah" [decorations] or be remained "exposed" to the vagaries of greedy "penetrating" sights of the opposite sex, leading to all forms of abnoxus things that originate from the state of "uncoveredness"?

Islam permits its women folk to go out formally covering their "Zeenah" except certain exceptions that are a limited few and not to be used it as fashion. "Ghassey Basar" is obligatory for both the genders. For women folk covering of "Zeenah' is an extra ordinary measure provided by Shariah to keep the society purified from all kinds of lust. For a Muslim, it is ordained by Allah and she has to abide by it with no question as the means of her best protection. That is the end of it. But for a "free-lancer" secularist or liberal the world is wide open. However,, Hh/she should not dare to poke his/her nose to disturb the restrictions" that are the intelligent sanctions from Allah and His Shariah for the good of mankind.

The list of ONLY "Reported " rape cases as given by you for a few countries must be sufficient to realize for such brothers and sisters the beauty of Islamic Shariah.

Shamim Siddiqi

Moderator - Shamim Bhai, i) the burden of goodness should not be levied on women alone to wear the Hijab, men should bear equal responsibility. ii) Qur'aan is indeed right about modesty but our interpretations and our language needs updating. iii) Women are fine, they should have the freedom to go about living their day to day life without worrying where these ugly men are lurking and looking at their Zeenah. iv) I would say let the men wear the Hijab for looking at other women without modesty. v) Whose fault was it when Adam ate that wheat/apple? - Adam's or Apple's?

Javed jamil : Criticism of article on Hijab

Dear Mike,


These are some of the reference for the figures I cited about the US.

“One in six American women are victims of sexual assault, and one in 33 men.(

“Fact #1: 17.6 % of women in the United States have survived a completed or attempted rape. Of these, 21.6% were younger than age 12 when they were first raped, and 32.4% were between the ages of 12 and 17. (Full Report of the Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, November, 2000)(

“According to the FBI Uniform Crime Report, there were 102,560 reported rapes or attempted rapes in 1990.[1] The Bureau of Justice Statistics estimates that 130,000 women were victims of rape in 1990.[2] A Harris poll sets the figure at 380,000 rapes or sexual assaults for 1993.[3] According to a study by the National Victims Center, there were 683,000 completed forcible rapes in 1990.[4] The Justice Department says that 8 percent of all American women will be victims of rape or attempted rape in their lifetime.

The radical feminist legal scholar Catharine MacKinnon, however, claims that "by conservative definition [rape] happens to almost half of all women at least once in their lives."[5]……… Koss and her colleagues concluded that 15.4 percent of respondents had been raped, and that 12.1 percent had been victims of attempted rape.[9] Thus, a total of 27.5 percent of the respondents were determined to have been victims of rape or attempted rape because they gave answers that fit Koss's criteria for rape (penetration by penis, finger, or other object under coercive influence such as physical force, alcohol, or threats).”

Moderator - Thanks for the statistics. Indeed, we had a international women's peace conference in Dallas in July this year, I was the registrar of the conference, and during that time, I was looking for stats - most of them are dated 1990. If some one can find latest stats, it would be appreciated. There is a phrase "forced rape" I am wondering what does it mean, is there a consensual rape?

From Zeba Salim

No, Dr. Jamil, you have reduced the debate to a east-west or west-east issue. Your argument that the reson we have high incidents of reported accounts of rape are attribued to the "commercialism of sex" and "laxity of laws. in the west. This can only be changed if we introduced pardah and burqa and eliminate any freedom of choice (see your earlier article), then the problem would be solved since "Islamic countries" reportedly have lower incidents of rape then does the west. Sorry, it's a weak argument; any researcher and scientific institute will tell you otherwise.

The environment within any Islamic countries does not create the means to get justice. If victims do get help, then it as a result of international pressure of which we have seen ample evidence. Rape aside, sexual molestations and violence are abound. I am stunned at the accounts Muslim women give me of the incidence of sexual violence that gets unreported in "Islamic countries" because there is no justice. Is justice trying four witness and proving your innocence? The stigma attached to getting justice also holds people back from reporting rape, sexual molestations etc. We have seen the horrific violations made by the courts in Saudi, even with evidence (a video of the rape), the victim was questioned, and her attorney's license stripped.

A complete laxity in the laws. If you are in this environment, why would anyone woman want to make a report? And let me add, if "rape" is defined as non-consensual sex even within wedlock, we will have as many women report "rape" from spouses in "Islamic countries" as we do in the west.

Moreover, your article also goes on about how women who dress provactively are inviting rape and that encourages the to get raped (which you denied in your previous post). I have shown you plenty of evidence that clothing does not play a part in protecting anyone from getting raped. Plenty of women in this world have been raped and they were fully addressed and not walking in dark alleyways; therefore clothing is not the common factor but a perception of entitlement, disrespect and the need to have power and control. Weak and pathetic men rape, not men who have been "seduced by a provactive woman." If you are trying to justify the reasons why men rape women, and wish to blame them for their actions, keep it at it, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx We have all read that the Qatar victim was blamed for "dressing provactively" but what about Mukthar Mai (sp) in Pakistan or several other prominent rape victims who were brutally tortured? I also gave you the reference for the article in Eygpt, Darfur and Bosnia. You see, xxxxxxxxxx you want to blame the media and subsequently the way women dress for the cause of sexual violence in this world when in fact, women get raped because they are not valued within a society, and there is no justice for them.

As for the defenders of Dr. Jamil's arguments, I am sure Dr. Jamil is knowledgable about matters of medicine and many other things, but in this area is hypothesis, if tested would fail. And for the other readers, I guess you and I watch different channels and programs, as ya'll seem well versed with the amount of nudity on American television.

Moderator - Zeba, you have brought some good points forward - i) it is not the issue of east or west, it is a human (rather inhuman) issue. ii) Dress provocation is addressed above - the provocation is inherent in those ugly men regardless of what the woman wears. iii) comment about the book is removed for the same reason given in Aziz's comments above iv) comments about the blame is removed. vi) Your response about Dr. Jamil's knowledge is not well thought out. I have explained in my general comments at the top.


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quraan burning

Planned Muslim Response to Qur'an Burning by Pastor Jones on September 11 in Mulberry, Florida

August 19, 2013| Dallas, Texas

Mike Ghouse
Text/Talk: (214) 325-1916

Mirza A Beg
(205) 454-8797


We as Muslims plan to respond to pastor Terry Jones' planned burning of 3000 copies of Quran on September 11, 2013 in positive terms.

Our response - we will reclaim the standard of behavior practiced by the Prophet concerning “scurrilous and hostile criticism of the Qur’an” (Muhammad Asad Translation Note 31, verse 41:34). It was "To overcome evil with good is good, and to resist evil by evil is evil." It is also strongly enjoined in the Qur’an in the same verse 41:34, “Good and evil deeds are not equal. Repel evil with what is better; then you will see that one who was once your enemy has become your dearest friend.”

God willing Muslims will follow the divine guidance and pray for the restoration of Goodwill, and on that day many Muslim organizations will go on a “blood drive” to save lives and serve humanity with kindness.

We invite fellow Americans of all faiths, races, and ethnicities to join us to rededicate the pledge, “One nation under God”, and to build a cohesive America where no American has to live in apprehension, discomfort or fear of fellow Americans. This event is a substitute for our 10th Annual Unity Day Celebration ( held in Dallas, but now it will be at Mulberry, Florida.

Unwittingly Pastor Jones has done us a favor by invigorating us by his decision to burn nearly 3000 copies Quran on September 11, 2013. Obviously he is not satisfied by the notoriety he garnered by burning one Qur'an last year.

As Muslims and citizens we honor the free speech guaranteed in our constitution. We have no intentions to criticize, condemn or oppose Pastor Terry Jones' freedom of expression. Instead, we will be donating blood and praying for goodness to permeate in our society.

We plan to follow Jesus Christ (pbuh), a revered prophet in Islam as well as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) – that of mitigating the conflicts and nurturing good will for the common good of the society.

We hope, this event and the message will remind Muslims elsewhere in the world as well, that violence is not the way. Muslims, who react violently to senseless provocation, should realize that, violence causes more violence, and besmirches the name of the religion that we hold so dear. We believe that Prophet Muhammad was a mercy to the mankind, and we ought to practice what we believe and preach. We must not insult Islam by the negative reactions of a few.

We can only hope it will bring about a change in the attitude of the followers of Pastor Jones, and in the behavior of those Muslims who reacted violently the last time Pastor sought notoriety – We hope this small step towards a bridge to peaceful coexistence would propel us towards building a cohesive society.

Like most Americans a majority of Muslims quietly go about their own business, but it is time to speak up and take positive action instead of negative reaction. May this message of peace and goodwill reverberate and reach many shores.

Lastly, we appreciate the Citizens of Mulberry, Florida, Honorable Mayor George Hatch, City Commissioners, police and Fire Chiefs for handing this situation very well. This will add a ‘feather of peace’ in the City’s reputation. We hope Mulberry will be a catalyst in showing the way in handling conflict with dignity and peace.

We thank the Media for giving value to the work towards peace rather than conflict.


Thank you.


The people in Dallas are making an effort to understand and clean their own hearts first, when we are free from bias, it would be easy to share that with others. Islam teaches us in so many ways to "respect the otherness of others" and it is time we find simple practical ways of doing it.