THIS IS A DRAFT PROPOSAL
Irfan and I will develop and fine tune this after a few responses.
As a Muslim it concerns me that some among us are violating the very thing Islam stands for; to be just. Given the amount of discussions we have had on the topic, (much of which is preserved at: www.WorldMuslimCongress.org) and the contributions many have made towards the understanding, Irfan and I will make an effort to put a proposal together.
I invite positive contributions on the topic from our esteemed forum members, in 75 words or less to make this a fruitful proposal. These two forums will set the limits on this particular thread, but those who want to write more, are welcome to the unrestricted group; PaksitaniAmericans@yahoogroups.com. On these two forums, World Muslim Congress and Dallas Pakistanis, I will not post anything that is not constructive and beyond 75 words. As an example, this paragraph is 75 words.
Irfan and I will develop and fine tune this after a few responses.
As a Muslim it concerns me that some among us are violating the very thing Islam stands for; to be just. Given the amount of discussions we have had on the topic, (much of which is preserved at: www.WorldMuslimCongress.org) and the contributions many have made towards the understanding, Irfan and I will make an effort to put a proposal together.
I invite positive contributions on the topic from our esteemed forum members, in 75 words or less to make this a fruitful proposal. These two forums will set the limits on this particular thread, but those who want to write more, are welcome to the unrestricted group; PaksitaniAmericans@yahoogroups.com. On these two forums, World Muslim Congress and Dallas Pakistanis, I will not post anything that is not constructive and beyond 75 words. As an example, this paragraph is 75 words.
Given below are two draft notes from me and Irfan:
A proposal for the Ahmadiyya Muslims to consider, which will lessen the hostility of a few among Sunnis and Shias towards them, and it is necessary for us to preserve the value of Islam as a religion of peace and justice.
The three easiest issues are:
THE WORD KAFIR:
Even though technically there is nothing wrong with it, as it simply means denier of my version of the truth. However it has become a derogatory word over the years. One of the Khalifas had said that anyone who does not accept Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as the promised Messiah is a Kafir, a denier.
We ask the current Khalifa Hazrat Mirza Masroor Ahmad to make a public declaration that anyone who claims himself to be a Muslim and recites the Shahada (that is a Muslim pledge declaring that Allah is the God and Muhammad is his prophet) is a Muslim. No ifs and buts. This will make it easy for a few among us to get off the high horse and respect the Khalifas words, I will be one of them and most moderate Muslims want to hear that as well. THE PRAYERS/NAMAZ
I have done my personal share, by going to the Ahmadiyya Masajid, pray behind the Imam leading the prayers, break the Ramadan fasts with fellow Muslim. Murabbi Saheb is a kind man, his presence and his demeanor is awe inspiring, a model Imam to respect with heart and I do that with all my heart. On the other hand a few of my Ahmadiyya friends did not reciprocate the same and were given reasons that how could they pray behind an Imam who does not believe in them. Of course, this is not a game of keeping scores; but emulating the ultimate peace maker, the Rahmatul Aalameen, the good will nurturer Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I will continue to do my share of goodwill regardless of the results.
I have done my personal share, by going to the Ahmadiyya Masajid, pray behind the Imam leading the prayers, break the Ramadan fasts with fellow Muslim. Murabbi Saheb is a kind man, his presence and his demeanor is awe inspiring, a model Imam to respect with heart and I do that with all my heart. On the other hand a few of my Ahmadiyya friends did not reciprocate the same and were given reasons that how could they pray behind an Imam who does not believe in them. Of course, this is not a game of keeping scores; but emulating the ultimate peace maker, the Rahmatul Aalameen, the good will nurturer Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I will continue to do my share of goodwill regardless of the results.
It will give a lot of comfort to non-Ahmadi Muslims, to see Ahmadi Muslims to swing by the nearest Mosque when the time for prayers hit, and go pray behind the Imam leading the prayers, be who it is; Shia, Sunni, Bohra, Warith Deen Muhammad or any group of Muslims where public worship is allowed.
Restrictions not to pray behind a Sunni or Shia imam must be lifted. It is not the Imam's niyyat, it is the niyyat (intent) of the banda (worshipper) to worship Allah that matters, and Masjid and imam are merely vehicles.
THOSE MUSLIMS
It is not kosher to say, that we are the peaceful Muslims and others are not; I was the other Muslim when I heard that, and I held back and talked and wrote about it, as that is the civil thing to do.
I urge the same to all Muslims not to present ourselves as angels and others as devils. It has come to haunt us in Dallas. One of the Chest thumping Muslims was excited to talk with an informant and lied about a Mosque and labeled it as funded by Saudi (as if it is evil). The idiot did not realize the mess he had created.
To most Christians, Jews and Hindus, we are all Muslims, they really don’t know the difference between an Ahmadi, Shia, Sunni… or other, just as most of us don’t know the difference between a Presbyterian, Baptist or a Methodist. If we tell them that we are the good guys, peace loving Muslims and the other Muslims are not; they simply laugh at it, and see that we are attempting to save our tail. They really don’t believe us.
They rather, see us be brutally honest. I was giving a Dinner talk to an all white Christian and Jewish group when I addressed the radicals as “some among us” don’t see what the majority sees… they really liked it. I did not stand there and tell that we are all clean good people and deny that we don’t have the bad ones among us, yes among us. They related the bad among them.
They rather, see us be brutally honest. I was giving a Dinner talk to an all white Christian and Jewish group when I addressed the radicals as “some among us” don’t see what the majority sees… they really liked it. I did not stand there and tell that we are all clean good people and deny that we don’t have the bad ones among us, yes among us. They related the bad among them.
Please do share the harassment and persecution Ahmadiyya Muslims are facing in Pakistan and other Muslim majority nations. The harassment comes from the bad guys from “among us.” There is a lot of work we need to do.
I urge Hazrat Mirza Masroor to guide the Ahmadiyya Muslims to speak all the good things they are doing, and I know and appreciate that. It is a collective good that all Muslims benefit from the good things Ahmadi Muslims do.
The Sunnis do not have a leader, but they want the good for all, clarify these things for us, and for those who are no sure about Ahmadiyya, but deep down want goodness.
The Sunnis do not have a leader, but they want the good for all, clarify these things for us, and for those who are no sure about Ahmadiyya, but deep down want goodness.
Mike Ghouse
Note to Irfan – they did send me the info about Kafir and Namaz, but it needs to be on their site, and part of their milieu and public declaration.
HERE IS IRFAN’S PROPOSAL
Your proposal is very well-intentioned and addresses a very pressing need of the Muslims (especially Pakistani Muslims) to reconcile their beliefs with those of the Ahmadi Muslims. I have no doubt in my mind that Ahmadis are not only Muslims, but good Muslims. They have considerable positive contribution in the progress and development of Pakistan. They are well-educated, well-behaved and civilized, extremely well-disciplined in their professional and religious life. It is very unfortunate that they are being treated so unfairly, rather cruelly because of their interpretation of the phrase khaatam-an-Nabiyyeenâ. Personally, I do not agree with their interpretation but I would not have bad feelings about them, let alone curse them openly or, worse, be an abettor in legislating a piece of constitutional amendment against their faith.
That said, I believe that a big part of the hatred that have plagued Pakistani social milieu in general, and Ahmadi Muslims in particular, is because of the thinking of their top leadership (beginning from Mirza Bashiruddin Mehmud) that anyone who does not believe in the Promised Messiahship/prophethood of Mirza G. A, is akaafir. If you recall, I posted my concern several times recently on your forum but no Ahmadi Muslim addressed my concern (it is also alleged that Sir Zafarullah Khan—the first foreign minister of Pakistan--an extremely bright mind—did not attend the M. A. Jinnah’s funeral because he did not consider (allegedly) him a Muslim). Now, if this attitude coming from the top and trickling downstream continues, I don’t think our combined efforts will bear much fruit.
You and I can very effectively make a case for anyone who believes in oneness of God, prays, gives poor-due, fasts, goes to Hajj once in a lifetime being a Muslim. But I am not sure if we can bring Mirza Tahir Ahmad sahib to the table and request him to change their (hidden) thinking (I say ‘hidden’ because, I think, they do not like to declare their inner policy for non-Ahmadis openly). If you still think it’s worth trying, I am with you 100%.
I do believe that if the Ahmadi Muslims can be convinced to change their inner thinking of considering non-Ahmadis as non-Muslims, everything else (praying behind a non-Ahmadi imam, visiting non-Ahmadi mosques, avoiding proselytization) can easily fit in the groove and the world will have a much reduced level of hostility towards them. If they can do that, that will do them and their future a lot of good. They can invite people to their conferences, invited lectures but I think they should avoid proselytization and debates as much as possible.
Who knows, so much good may come out of the change in the core pattern of Ahmadi leadership thinking that folks like you and I can, one day, make a strong case in Pak SC (hopefully I. A. Choudhry will stay as CJ) to have the 1974 second amendment repealed!
Irfan
Being from the community I personally thinks that ahmadies must accept this proposal. I agree with each and everything that you have suggested in the proposal. I have personally suggested not all but quite a few of them to many people in my discussions with the member of community, a very few agree but majority disagree. But I think it's time that ahmadies need to be flexible in their attitudes and to get out of the victim mentality and take a different approach to the realities.
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to 'no compulsion in religion'? I can't believe you are speaking the same language as bigots and terrorists by blaming the victioms the very peaceful Ahmadis.
ReplyDeletePeaceful Ahmadiyya beliefs offend hatful anti-Ahmadiyya just like being black offends white racists. It’s nothing to be offended about but who is going to explain it to these bigots?
ReplyDeleteThis bigot Irfan should learn a thing or two from Dr Pervaiz Hoodbouy who says it as it is and does not blame the victim;
ReplyDeletehttp://tribune.com.pk/story/345377/run-for-your-life/
The following are my views and do not represent any official Ahmadiyya Islam views.
ReplyDelete"they did send me the info about Kafir and Namaz, but it needs to be on their site, and part of their milieu and public declaration."
Hope that solves the misunderstanding which I believe you may have about Ahmadiyya.
But just to mention briefly:
In many many countless examples you'll find that Ahmadis including the head of worldwide Ahmadiyya Muslim Community Hadhrat Mirza Masroor Ahmad (atba) refer to other Muslims as "non-Ahmadi MUSLIMS" which itself should be enough to clear the misconception. The problem is with those people who say "Oh no you don't...you Ahmadis think that we are non-Muslims." They are the ones who are promoting this idea. Not the Ahmadis. It's not a surprise that the majority will trust the people of their denomination. It's not their fault. It's the fault of those who Intentionally and Knowingly put forward utterly wrong allegations.
NAMAZ: There is a very sound and logical reason(s) for that. I hope that is explained as I'm not going to go into it. But I will mention that, not praying behind a Imam should NOT be the cause of grudges against Ahmadis. We don't pray behind Christians or Hindus. Does that mean we stop sitting among them, enjoying their good company or joining forces for good or idk just being best friends?
Dear Irfan,
"...is because of the thinking of their top leadership (beginning from Mirza Bashiruddin Mehmud) that anyone who does not believe in the Promised Messiahship/prophethood of Mirza G. A, is akaafir."
This has been answered by Mike Gause really. Kaafir just means "disbeliever". It is wrong to think that Kaafir implies non-Muslim. Yes it has become derogatory word overtime, but notice Ahmadis don't say that "hey...that guy is a kaafir". This you hear many times from non-Ahmadi Muslims (off course not the majority). But our Khalifa saying it like once or twice in one literature under the correct context is NOT an issue. (the context being the kaafir in the recognition of Promised Messiah). The issue is when anti-Ahmadi activists who are indeed in minority push this issue and say "look your khalifa said kaafir...Ahaa!!"
As to why Sir Zafarullah Khan did not read Janaza prayer of Muhammad Ali Jinnah:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOZKZUhRgl8
"visiting non-Ahmadi mosques, avoiding proselytization"
Visiting non-Ahmadi mosques and praying alone is fine. But avoiding proselytizing??? I'm sure you are aware that you wouldn't have been a Muslim if it wasn't due Dawah efforts starting from the time of Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw)!
"I do believe that if the Ahmadi Muslims can be convinced to change their inner thinking of considering non-Ahmadis as non-Muslims"
Do you think we are openly lying that we consider other Muslims to be Muslims??!!
I don't mean to be rude. I dearly respect your views but the last two quotes are shocking to me as a sincere Ahmadi Muslim.
Like the commentator above, I am also an Ahmadi Muslim and my views represent noone's except my own. However, my views are entirely the same as his on every subject he has touched upon.
DeleteMr. Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteIrfan is not a bigot, you please read his writing on this site under the tag Ahmadiyya... you need to apologize to him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOZKZUhRgl8
ReplyDeletethis video still does not provide a true to the fact answer as to why he did not participate in the Jinaza prayers. It did give three possibilities, so essentially by doing so Ahmadies are giving a benefit of doubt to Sir Zafarullah Khan.
Another example saying Namaz behind Hindu and Christian in itself stating the fact that Ahmadies do not consider the other Muslims as Muslims and the rest of the Muslims are considered as non-Muslims just like Christians and Hindus.
"Irfan is not a bigot, you please read his writing on this site under the tag Ahmadiyya... you need to apologize to him."
ReplyDeleteAnyone who tries to justify persecution or murders with what is perfectly legal in any civilised society and within one's human rights is a bigot nothing else. He should be blaming anti-Ahmadiyya for not being tolerant enough because of what their Mullahs teach them and should try to educate them instead of blaming the victims the Ahmadis. I guess he would blame Jews for Nazi persecution and blame Shias for the way they are murdered by Sunnis.
Why should Ahmadis be doing something that does not harm anyone like praying behind anyone? Why are Ahmadis on trial here? Ahmadis are completely within their rights to not pray behind someone if they so wish, this is called freedom of religion. Apparently there is no compulsion in religion or so I am told. Also any civilised law does not have any issue with it then why are some people complaining about if they are not bigots as anyone who does demand such a thing is a bigot. Ahmadis are not anyone’s slave and do not need to do anything that takes away their freedom and certainly not in matters which are very personal such as praying.
ReplyDeleteIn contras both Sunni and Shia scholars are inciting their followers to kill Ahmadis with the result that almost every other week some Ahmadi is killed somewhere. That is where the focus needs to be. Funny that some bigots will try to connect that with the fact that Ahmadis do not pray behind such barbarians. This is like saying be a slave or prepare to die.
Maududi did not read Jinah’s Janaza. Anyone complaining about that? This proves that complaint against Ahmadis is based on bigotry and not on any principle.
ReplyDeleteIT WAS A PROPOSAL WITH THE INTENT OF
ReplyDeleteA proposal for the Ahmadiyya Muslims to consider, which will lessen the hostility of a few among Sunnis and Shias towards them, and it is necessary for us to preserve the value of Islam as a religion of peace and justice.
"A proposal for the Ahmadiyya Muslims to consider, which will lessen the hostility of a few among Sunnis and Shias towards them"
ReplyDeleteQuestion is who is right and within their rights and who isn’t? Ahmadis clearly are and Sunnis and Shias clearly aren’t (to make matters worse Sunnis and Shias kill each other too apart from killing Ahmadis). So who should be blamed? Of course the Ahmadiyya as the proposal is made by bigots pretending to be well intentioned. By this standard Muslims all over non-Muslim world should cut down their activities to avoid offending the host nations. Let’s see you campaigning for that Mike.
"it is necessary for us to preserve the value of Islam as a religion of peace and justice."
..and this purpose is best served by oppressing the only peaceful and just sect from among Sunnis, Shias and Ahmadis, obviously.
"A proposal for the Ahmadiyya Muslims to consider, which will lessen the hostility of a few among Sunnis and Shias towards them"
ReplyDeleteIsn’t that your acceptance that Sunnis and Shias are hostile people without just cause? So what is the problem in placing the blaming where it belongs ie with Sunnis and Shias? What is not clear here? How is giving bigots more space going to encourage them to do the right? It will only encourage them to stay bigoted and probably more so. Thanks but no thanks.
Another Ahmadi martyred;
ReplyDeletehttp://tribune.com.pk/story/346941/targeting-minorities-ahmadi-man-shot-dead-in-shaheed-benazirabad/
We should accept that Sunnis are terrorists. They kill everyone; Shias, Ahmadis, Christian, Hindus, Buddh, Americans, you name it. It’s useless to try to appease them. Another method to neutralise them must be found.
Salam to all here.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, I would like to begin by saying that by the Grace of Allah I believe myself to be an Ahmadi Muslim.
Secondly, I only found this article in a random search of google and have so far only read this and a little of your site's mission statement. May I begin by offering my praise for your mission statement which is certainly a worthy cause that we should all back wholeheartedly. I hope and pray that you are blessed with success in your efforts to serve Islam.
Thirdly, I would like to say that some of these comments are unfair. I think to stereotype all Sunnis and Shias as 'anti-Ahmadi hate mongers' or some such is unfair and exactly what this site is against. Of course there are 'bad apples' but in my experience the majority of non-Ahmadi Muslims I have come across who know I am an Ahmadi are extremely decent people. Perhaps one or two view me as non-Muslims but the majority are kind and have a sense of brotherhood. Of course, this may be because I am based in the west and I cannot speak for the Ahmadis suffering in Pakistan.
Finally there seems to have been one major unresolved issue on this post; Ahmadi Muslims praying behind non-Ahmadi Muslims and the related issue of Sir Chaudry Zafarullah Khan. I hope to just mention a couple of points on this:
When someone prays behind an Imam, at least for the duration of the prayer, you religiously follow that Imam and accept him as your leader. A non-Ahmadi Muslim Imam may well be a very sincere Muslim and a very decent and knowledgeable leader. He may hold Ahmadi Muslims in the deepest sympathy and be respectful towards our leaders. However the fact is that he has also rejected someone we believe to be a prophet of God. That someone did so on several occasions. Indirectly, whether they mean to or not, they are calling someone we believe to be a prophet of God to be the worst kind of liar. If we follow them in a prayer, then for the duration of that prayer we accept them as our Imam and join them in that assertion. Clearly this is impossible for Ahmadi Muslims.
This also applies to saying funeral prayers behind non-Ahmadi Muslim Imams and so this is one of the reasons presented for it being impossible for Sir C. Z. Khan Sahib to pray behind a non-Ahmadi Muslim imam for the funeral of Qaid-e-Azam. However, it should also be remembered that our khulafa have also taught that it is the responsibility of the ummah to ensure the funeral prayers of Muslims be read and if no one is willing or available to participate in the funeral prayer of an innocent non-Ahmadi Muslim then Ahmadi Muslims should do so. However, again in the case of Qaid-e-Azam I am sure there were masses of non-Ahmadi Muslims participating in his funeral prayer and so there was no need for Ahmadi Muslims to do so.
One last point, Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and his khulafa have always referred to non-Ahmadi Muslims as Muslims. The idea that they do not is just hate propaganda fueled by those with an anti-Ahmadi agenda.
Once again, thanks for your wonderful site and I wish you every success in your mission.
4 years too late I know, but I think that you(Mike) and Irfan are well intentioned and the Ahmadi person calling Irfan a bigot is mistaken. But I also think that the premise of the proposal is wrong. Sunni's in Pakistan and the Muslim league did not declare us as non-Muslim based on the definition of Kafir (denier of truth) but due to a theological fundamental disagreement resulting in the claim that Ahmadi Muslim have indulged in bida (innovation). But declaring Ahmadi Muslims constitutionally as "Non-Muslims" in Pakistan was politically motivated. In addition, many anti Ahmadi Muslim organizations exist to counter the Ahmadi Muslim theology such as Katam-i-Nabuwat. The fact that Ahmadi Muslims do not pray behind "traditional Muslims" should not be an excuse for intolerance or bigotry and certainly not for persecution or even murder.
ReplyDelete