Debate on Islamic State

I just received an email about the upcoming debate on Islamic state, and I was completely taken back at the fiction Mr. Zuhdi Jasser is concoting and then solving it, and of course becoming a darling to the Neo-cons* (http://hatesermons.blogspot.com/2008/03/neocons.html )

First of all, I must acknowledge my respect for Mr. Zhudi Jasser for the 99 good things he does, but on this upcoming debate, he is wrong, per the information presented in the item received from him.

He seems to have a misunderstanding of Main stream Muslims and I have to call him on this. He once stated that all mosques in America deliver hate sermons, I asked him to prove it. Which he corrected to at least not the mosques he had visited. Even Wall Street Journal had printed that a while back, I wrote to them to prove it. Both have passed out this rumor as a fact. It is not building healthy and truthful and peaceful societies.

I hope we can work on legislation that would require all public lectures and sermons to be recorded and made available through internet and public archives. Any hate sermon, any incitement or whole sale prejudices must be called to justify. Just as one cannot shout “Fire” in a public place to disrupt peace, one should not be allowed to spew hate in public. This applies to all places of worship and non profits that are using public benefit through tax exemption. http://hatesermons.blogspot.com/2008/03/hate-sermons-from-pulpit.html

A statement is ascribed to Mr. Zuhdi Jasser as “a self-proclaimed ‘Moderate’ Muslim from Arizona…and whose views on Islam are well outside the scope of the mainstream Muslim world”. Indeed, his understanding appears to be outside the scope of the Mainstream Muslim World. Mr. Zuhdi Jasser is not in touch.

The mainstream Americans, Main stream British, Indians or Main stream Muslims, Hindus, Christians and Jews are moderate people who want to get along with all. They are no bigots, they believe in living their life and letting others live theirs. The do not aspire or conspire for secretive societies, they do not want to rule by injustice and push their ideas on to others, as they believe, if you are unjust, you are going to pay. They are law abiding citizens, where as the Neocons are not. Every one of them has fouled or still to be caught.

Mr. Zuhdi lacks understanding of the mainstream Muslim world, let alone mainstream America. Extremism is not a mainstream staple, it is a fringe of the society. Neocons and Islamists are indeed fringe elements of the society. They are incapable of dialogue, they rather use the megaphones or gunpowder and bulldoze all who oppose them, because they are insecure and abuse the power they have by pushing others. They will silence you by calling you unpatriotic if you question them. Their time is up now, thank God.

The Neocons, the Islamists, the Zionists and the Hindutvadis are a tiny-weenie minority driving the world by frightening the crap out of constipated men. Their time is up too and I pray that the see the benefit in dialogue and conflict mitigation as a path to peace, peace to them and every one around them. I pray that they jump on this path to bring peace, I know they will succeed, as they have the passion and funds to do it.

The mainstream Muslims do not aspire or have any thing to do with "Is the Ideological Desire to Establish an Islamic State a Clear and Present Danger to the U.S.?" They have come to America to be free and not have another lawless society in the name of any religion, be it their own.

The words appeal to the money throwing Neocons, who love the above words " clear and present danger". It is a frightening tactic to keep their grip.

The main stream Muslim knows deeply in his hearts that, democracy is the right form of governance. No doubt, there are a few out there, who dream Islamic form of government, which is about justice, but by no stretch of imagination they are main stream.

Even those in the Mainstream Muslims who may dream of the Islamic rule, will not do anything to make it happen, as no form of current label of Islamic rule works. None of the Saudi, Irani, Afghani or Sudanese brand will work. They would rather opt for the democracy as in Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan (now), Turkey, Bangladesh and India – together Muslims in these democracies make about 2/3rds of Muslim world.

Main stream Muslims do want democracy, and a nation where justice prevails. They do not want the kind of Khilafat that is projected by the Neocons “they are here to dominate and subjugate others.” Absolute baloney! No significant group of Muslims wants that. However, they do wish a Pope like figure who can make small petty decisions and give relief to apostates, rape victims, divorce and other issues, but it ain’t going to happen.

Islam is not designed to have a pope. Neither the Qur’aan nor the Prophet assigned a person to interpret the Qur'aan for the Muslims. The prophet said, you are individually accountable on the day of reckoning, so it is your responsibility to read and understand the book I am leaving behind for you. Islam took the priesthood off from controlling the knowledge and influencing the masses, the community is free to learn and practice their religion on their own. It was like internet in 612 AD, Prophet Muhammad making the knowledge available to every one.

To be a Muslim is to be a peace maker; one who constantly seeks to mitigate conflicts and nurtures goodwill for co-existence and world peace - God wants his creation to be in peace and harmony, and that is the chief purpose of religion.

Thus the role of the Caliph was state administration, but people opted to seek knowledge from them, as the first four rightly guided caliphs had a full understanding of the religion. (Read the balance created between the Scholars and the Caliphs from 9th Centurn onwards -http://sharialaws.blogspot.com/2008/03/why-shariah.html)

In essence there is a separation of church and state. Muslims had a plurlistic society during the Prophet's time, infact the Madina declaration may be first of its kind where state signed a joint treaty among the people of different faiths to practice their faith freely. Muslims never had that opportunity until the mid of the last century. Indeed, America was the only nation on the earth that had democracy some 225 years ago, every nation on the earth until recently was a colony, tyranny, monarchy or dictatorship. Neocons are a hurdle for democracy, if God can help put Obama in place, we can see democracies around the world flourishing, it is his attitude, lack of arrogance and the desire to accommodate that will change the world for Good. Presently 2/3rds of Muslims live in democracy; it may go up to 75% or higher while still a whole lot of world needs to embrace democracy including our current president.

In conclusion, the debate is healthy and would be an opportunity to establish that Mainstream Muslims do not want any form of governance other than democracy.

Mike Ghouse is a Speaker, Thinker, Writer and a Moderator. He is a frequent guest on talk radio and local television network discussing Pluralism, politics, Islam, Religion, Terrorism, India and civic issues. His comments, news analysis, opinions and columns can be found on the Websites and Blogs listed at his personal website www.MikeGhouse.net. He can be reached at MikeGhouse@gmail.com or (214) 325-1916

Debate on Islamic State

You are invited to "THE GREAT DEBATE” A Muslim Debate
Is the Ideological Desire to Establish an Islamic State a Clear and Present Danger to the U.S.?"

...come and witness an example of a real contest of ideas within the Muslim community in what is one of the most critical issues of this century.

WHEN: SATURDAY, APRIL 5, 6:30 – 9:30pm
WHO: The debate will be between Dr. Zuhdi Jasser & Imam Al-Darsani

Dr. M. Zuhdi Jasser, of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy, Phoenix, Arizona.
Imam Mohamed Al-Darsani of the Islamic Center for Peace in Fort Myers, Florida.

WITH MODERATOR: Michael Cromartie, Vice-President, Ethics and Public Policy Center, Washington, D.C.

WHAT: THEY WILL DEBATE THE FOLLOWING QUESTION in an established debate format:

Is the ideological desire to establish an Islamic state a clear and present danger to the United States of America? (Dr. Jasser will debate the affirmative and Imam Al-Darsani will debate the negative)

Other issues covered may include:

Islam v. Islamist
Koran v. Constitution
Role of political Islam in America
Role of political Islam as a root cause of Islamist terror
Status of Jews and Christians
Terror and Al Qaeda

SPONSORED BY: THE FLORIDASECURITY COUNCIL www.FloridaSecurityCouncil.org
WHERE: EDISON COLLEGE IN NAPLES FLORIDA. 7007 Lely Cultural Pkwy, Naples, Florida 34113

Reserve your free seats at:
www.debate.eventbrite.com
Do not delay - Seating is very limited


BACKGROUND: The debate evolved after a National Security Briefing in Naples on February 23rd held by the Florida Security Council which showed the film "Obsession" followed by a panel discussion of experts concerning the threat of Radical Islamism upon the West.

Dr. M. Zuhdi Jasser was among the anti-terrorism experts included on the panel following the showing of the film.

Imam Mohamed Al-Darsani was present at the event and during the Q+A period objected to the film and the discussion.

Tom Trento, Director of the Florida Security Council after the event stated, “Moreover, the Imam from the ICP, Mohamed Al-Darsani, in print afterwards and before the audience of almost 400, indicated that the whole evening was just an effort to scare people with a film that is propaganda and a guest speaker who is quote, a “self-proclaimed ‘Moderate’ Muslim from Arizona…and whose views on Islam are well outside the scope of the mainstream Muslim world”.

Thus, the possibility of a public debate between Dr. Jasser and Imam Mohamed Al-Darsani was subsequently raised in order to formally discuss the central issues which divide Islamists from Americans.

The Florida Security Council stepped in to organize and sponsor the debate.

A FEW COMMENTS AND RESPONSES:

Members share, opinions are your own
this issue of World Muslim Congress is archived at:
http://muslimarchives.blogspot.com/2008/03/03-31-2008-islamic-state.html

1. Kimat gul khatak -Debate on Islamic State
2. Shamim Siddiqi - Debate on Islamic State
3. Tarek Fatah - Debate on Islamic State
4. Turkman - Debate on Islamic State
5. Mubashir - - Debate on Islamic State

Mike Ghouse
www.worldmuslimcongress.com
http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com
http://quraan-today.blogspot.com
http://sharialaws.blogspot.com

From: kimat gul khatak Date: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:43 pm Subject: Re: Dallas Pakistanis :: Debate on Islamic State

Mike asa,Great effort.
I am amazed as a Muslim why do I have to apologize for being one. No Religion has democracy AS A MODEL OF SOCIAL JUSTICE. Am I wrong ? Islam as a religion is the only one nearest to the present day collective responsibility or "Democracy".It would be very useful to debate the view point of Judaism, Christianity( the most undemocratic of all) Buddhism and Hinduism or any other ism for that matter where divine thought is based on Democracy. The thought becomes non divine when democratised.If possible it would be nice to quote biblical edits for democratic administration. A debate on the subject of Christianity and democracy would be nice to have.Let us see how democratic Christianity as a religion is?

kimat gul khatak

Moderator :: Kimat, excellent points and we need to be explore. Your principle is good, every group should be judged from the same rules.

Islam: the state and religion were one and the same during the times of Prophet and through Hazarat Ali, then it splintered, Hazrat Imam took the lead in Religion where as the state was run by Muawia. However what distinguished the times of Prophet was the multi-faith environment that led to the Madinah pact and innumerable examples of Prophet's respect for co-existence. All of that vanished in Islam's birth place, but moved to Spain and India and literally died with the fall of the empires, and with that the Islamic tradition of pluralism was decimated. Under colonialism, it took a different from altogether. Again from the independence movements in the 40's, it took ground in Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Turkey and a few other nations. Thank God, the Prophets' tradition of inclusiveness and experience of multi-faith is resurfacing in the US and Canada and hope it spreads to the "Islamic" Nations. The signs are there... the opening of Temple in Dubai, Church in Qatar, and now possible church in Saudi Arabia. A full circle.

The early Christianity was simply a religion and not a state. The Romans and Kings in the 3rd and 4th century upped it to a state religion. Just as with Islam and all other religions, the Kings bent the rules to preserve their kingdom and their excesses's were indistinguishable from religion. Very few questioned them and risked their lives.

Cyrus upped the Zoroastrian faith to be the state religion, I do not know of any excesses by the Zoroastrian Kings, it does not mean they do not exist. It is the individuals that do wrongs things, not the religion.

Hinduism was both religion and a state at least from Krishna and Kurukshetra War, Ram Rajya with Lord Ram. Prior to that religion was not the domain of kings.

Buddhism was upped to State religion during the reign of King Ashoka and he sent his emissaries all over the world to spread the word. However, the state policy was no warfare, in fact, for a while he did not have a army or police in his kingdom.

Judaism was a state religion with David, Solomon and the other Kings, but for a period of 2000 years, there was no government that was labeled Jewish.
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Shamim Siddiqi - Debate on Islamic State
Dear Br. Ghouse, ASA Your challenging attitude is worth more than any thing in the hours of trial of Muslim Ummah. The West has developed the tendency to generalize things, making mountains of mole hills. Then, they condemn the Muslim Ummah even its extremely routine rituals of Ebadah. The facts and figures that the WESTERN MEDIA publishes against Muslim activities in the West are highly exaggerated and are put out of context. They make a "bombshell" out of some smoking cigar and then create all hue and cry in the so-called name of terrorism. Even the legitimate demands of Muslims in Chechnya, Palestine, Kashmir and elsewhere in the world are painted like the most dangerous things.

Osama is dead long ago. Pervez Musharraf confirmed it at the end of devastating bombardment of Tora Bora. But America and its anti-Islam media is keeping him alive for the sake of their propaganda stunts against Islam and General Pervez has now become its senseless tool/partner in this hegemony. Osama is now the "need" of America and it is keeping him alive by attributing false and concocted statements to him. America, in fact, is preparing the ground to attack the Pak- Afghan boarder area, perhaps very "soon", perhaps before the ouster of General Pervez from Pakistan politics. It must be condemned vehemently by brothers like you, lest it becomes too late.

Shamim Siddiqi

WWW.dawahinamericas.com

Moderator – Brother Shamim, your words describe the situation very well. Making mountains out of Mole Hills. Recently I wrote that when an ugly father killed his daughter for disobedience, it was all over the world and was a fodder for the talk show hosts, because the man was a Muslim. The very same week at least 50 other fathers killed their siblings for one reason or the other, one in Florida killed the baby because he wanted a son, he was not a Muslim, then one in Texas smashed the 6 months old baby’s head on the rock, he was not a Muslim either. The media has chosen to obey the Neocons (http://hatesermons.blogspot.com/2008/03/neocons.html ) and it is an uphill battle.

Fortunately there is a reservoir of Good people – greater than 95% of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists are moderates – the mainstream people, who want to get along with all and don’t care for the lies media lays out in front of them, they rather watch American Idol, and I am glad they do. We can change the perceptions by being with them. As a community we live in Islands and Mosques, do not get out and be with others… look at our weddings, funerals, birthdays, anniversaries… do we have people other than ourselves? The only idea about Muslims they get is from TV and that ain’t good. People have to see us and believe that we are like them in being good to others, caring for the needy, helping the deprived … we are all of it, but others don’t about it. Change comes, if you, yes, you, each one of you starts being with others. No one will do it. Alhamdu Lillah, at least , I do my part in letting others know that as a Muslim I am on par with them being a good and decent human being. May Allah grant his grace for me to do more.

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Tarek Fatah - Debate on Islamic State
Mike,

The debate has not yet taken place and you have already declared Zuhdi Jasser as 'dead wrong'. Then you label him as a neocon, but then suggest that your 'respect' him.
As far as mosque sermons go, could you identify any mosque in the US that has distanced itself from the doctrine of Jihad as pronounced by such 20th century Islamists as Syed Qutb, Maudoodi and Hassan al-Banna? Unless one explicitly states that the doctrine of Jihad does not apply in today's world, that imam or mosque should be considered as supporting jihadi ideology and hence follows the extremist agenda set by their Saudi funders.
In a world where International treaties and multilateral charters govern international relations, there is no room for extra-state players to conduct free-lance jihad.

Tarek
Chasing a Mirage: The Tragic Illusion of an Islamic State
The author analyzes the diverging aspirations that separate the Islamist from the Muslim, and the Islamic State from the State of Islam.
Pre-order today at Amazon.com or Chapters.ca

Moderator: Tarek, As a Muslim I feel duped by a few Muslim scholars from medieval times who had cleverly presented the wrong kind Jihad as the core of Islam. There is no offensive war or aggression in Islam. Thanks for the 9/11 tragedy, we are finding the truth out of necessity and I pray that Muslim majority who believes in the right Jihad have the guts to speak out against the wrong Jihad dumped on our thoughts for centuries.

I do know two of the Imams in my town who have earned the respect from others scholars nationwide. They are Imam Zia Kavakci and Imam Zia Shaikh of Dallas and Irving respectively. I don’t believe they subscribe to the methodology word for word. I am copying this to both of them and will report their response. Both of them are engaged in multi-faith dialogue and they are part of the community at large. Saudi Funding may be a reality elsewhere, but I see it as a myth at least in my City.

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Turkman - Debate on Islamic State
Sir,
I think, you do not read newspapers in USA. There was a news item that FBI had hired some Mosque-going Moslims to spy on, what goes on in Mosques. Though they had just submitted their report of about just over 100 Mosques, FBI had announced the result that 3/4th of Mosques in USA spread hate against USA and Non Moslim Americans. This is why I have stopped going to any Mosque.

FBI is hiring more Moslims now to finish the study with tons of audio and vedio tapes, don't worry and stop spreading hate against the West and USA yourself ...!

I understand, all new Immigrants have rights but Moslims like me, who do not know, how to become Traitors of their country, USA have some rights too.

Moderator: Mr. Turkman, do you trust FBI & CIA - whose facts were WMD's, Iran's Nuclear development... and an endless amount of concoctions. Please let me know where they have published it, I want to challenge it. Which Mosque did they spew the hate, I would like to visit that mosque and speak up, if the non-sense is still going on. Please write what exactly they said...

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Mubashir - - Debate on Islamic State
Dear friends,

Where inter-state treaties apply and adhered to and where there is a trouble shooting mechanism in place (like the UN) or World Court, perhaps it may not be a good idea to lauch a personal Jihad.

However, where a situation exists where a state is waging a war for land and settlements by occupying another nation's and which is balatantly supported by a powerful state which does not play fair, and where the UN resolutions are played with, what are Palestinians supposed to do? Would not resisting an evil occupation come under Jihad?

What about the Afghans who resisted the Soviets and now the NATO allies. They had nothing to do with 911. Did Mullah Omar not offer to hand over Osama if the US furnished proof of his guilt?

What about illegal occupation of Iraq? Do it's inhabitants have the right to resist and under what circumstances their resistance qualify as a Jihad/Resistance/struggle?

What Muslims need to do is to have an organisation like OIC where such matters be referred to (after exhuasting all other available avenues) and seek advise to see if a resistance qualifies for a Jihad or not.

Any ideas?
Mubashir

Moderator - Palestinians have every right to defend their freedom and every human should support their right. It is indeed a struggle against occupation. Shame on us, the Americans for judging the Palestinians based on the actions of the leadership, rather than their plight. Just as the Majority of Americans want out of Iraq, but are bullied by our lousy leadership, Palestinians have endured a similar leadership trauma, so goes with the leadership of Israel. The suffering is heaped on a common Palestinian and an Israeli.

It is the leadership on all sides that is crooked and in the hands of Christian, Jewish and Muslim Neocons, who are incapable of thinking solutions, violence is all they know. The leadership did not guide the oppressed ones to express their frustration and anger in the right way. Israel and the US do not stand on moral high grounds , but the actions of Hamas and the leadership has lost them the moral grounds too. If Hamas can think about the hopeless future of their children and swallow the false pride and renounce their statement of wiping Israel out, and renounce violence towards children and women, they cannot lose in the long run. They can easily gain the moral upper hand. The good people of the world will overwhelm the Neocons with sheer goodness and morality.

Both sides need to learn co-existence. Oppression, occupation and violence will not take them where they really want - Hope for one and security for the other.