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Mike Ghouse

Wednesday, April 23, 2008

Ahmadiyya Muslims, what next?

A few articles and comments below;
Ahmadiyya Muslims, what next?
http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2008/04/ahmadiyya-muslims-what-next.html
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The real issue is not about who is a Muslim, but it is about how the majorities treat their minorities.
Should the bad decisions of a few in the name of Islam, reflect on the Muslim community at large? Now, Indonesia is planning to ban the "heretical" Muslim sect, should that reflect on Islam? The least we can do is to speak up against the tyranny of one group of people against the other.

The easy option is to do nothing and let the world believe that it is Islam, and if we did that, we would lose our right to complain that it is not us, well it is us. The actions are not the work of a Looney brigade or some fringe groups; it is the government of Indonesia succumbing to please the few among them.

In the movie "A Bug's life", it just took one gutsy Flik to fend off the terrorizing grasshoppers, it takes two boys or two girls to stand up to the class room bully to end the tyranny. It would take a few passionate Muslims to speak out and persuade the establishment. I suggest every one to watch this movie to understand how our Neocons (extremist Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and others - Jews claim Zionists are not extremists, and I take their word for it) work and how us, the silent majority should act.

The real question that we need to address is should we let a majority determine what one believes, wears or eats? Can the Majority in the United States do that? Can the majority in Indonesia do that? Should that work in India? Can the Sunni Majority in Saudi Arabia harass the Shia? Can the Shia Majority in Iran harass the Sunnis? We have to catch up with our own integrity. Those who were a majority elsewhere are a minority somewhere else.

God is about justice and he wants us to live in peace and harmony, after all, each one of us is his creation, and he will not discriminate any one of us. Qur’aan - 49:13 “O men! Behold, we have created you all out of a male and a female, and have made you into nations and tribes, so that you might come to know one another. Verily, the noblest of you in the sight of God is the one who is most deeply conscious of Him. Behold, God is all-knowing, all-aware.”

A majority of Muslims understand that Islam is a religion of peace, a religion of freedom and justice, and a religion that does not force people to behave. Indeed, if we start looking at ourselves, Alhamdu Lillah, Praise the Lord, the majority of us get along with all and live a life of peace and co-existence.

Every now and then, a "few" among us cross that line, when we let Governments, in the name of Islam start judging people's faith; we are making a gross error defying the very God we purport to follow. Don’t practicing Muslims recite this at least 50 times a day? Qur’aan, Sura “1:4 Lord of the Day of Judgment!” And “1:5 you alone do we worship; and unto Thee alone do we turn for aid.”

Is it up to God or the Government of Indonesia? When we object the Neocons to pre-empt God and bring the Armageddon as soon as possible and justify their ruthlessness in the name of God, then we must object any one taking over God’s decisions in the name of Islam.

When Hazrat Bakr was agreed upon to be the Caliph, the consensus was with him and the few who disagreed dropped their opposition and followed the leader in the same manner as Republicans and democrats who fight within until a candidate is nominated, then every one rallies around the selected one.

The problem with us or any majority of people is we do not give our consensus; we do not exercise our rights and by default give others, the right to govern us.

Not the Pakistani people, but the dictator in-charge, to appease a few, enacted the laws declaring Ahmadiyya group of people as non-Muslims, but then the Pakistani people start believing and legitimizing it. Americans are no different, if the President thinks Russia is evil, we jump with him and when he turns around and befriends China, and in a heartbeat we change our minds too. If he declares Islam is the danger… thank God, Americans are getting away from blindly following government and exercising independent judgment.

It is time for Muslims to stand up and speak out.

Remember the Good Samaritan American women during 9/11? They wore Hijab to show solidarity with Muslim women, the time is coming, when a whole mass of population will declare themselves Muslim to show solidarity with the Ahmadiyya, what are you going to do?

What prevents one from incorporating their group with the name Muslim or Islam? There are a lot of websites with the words Muslim and Islam, but they are actually anti-Islam. What are you going to do about it?

It is time for Muslims to wake up and act righteous and speak out.

Would you join me in writing to the Indonesian government to consider this ill-adivised proposal?

# # # Additional appeal #1:

I am a Muslim, a Sunni if it makes a difference in building goodwill.

I do not believe in getting pushed into a box. I realize that it will take a while for all of us to get to that point. On the other hand there is nothing wrong in accepting the diversity among us, it is not the difference, it is our attitude towards the difference that needs to be evaluated.

First of all, please note that our forum or any other forum must values every opinion, I believe God has created us all equal, what we make out of it is our effort and God knows everything we do.

This is the reason you will find legitimate criticism of issues (not individuals) is published on this forum. As a publisher and moderator of this group, I can simply delete the criticism leveled against me every now and then, but I don’t. You should not be surprised that Brother Iftekhar Alvis’s criticism is published here, as Muslims we have to engage in dialogue, listen to different point of views and not be judgmental, we have to respectfully disagree, but not deny each others’ point of view. We cannot expect the good things to happen, if we do not pave the way for a dialogue and debate.

Several Imams, scholars and heads of organizations have expressed the need for the Muslim community to put our difference aside and come together for the common good of Muslims and the world. What is good for us has got to be good for others for it to sustain.

Ahmadiyya no doubt differ from the Sunni thought, but Sunnis also differ from Shia in the interpretation of Ahl-e-bait. But we have lived all along for over 14 centuries. Some of us have issues with the newer group in the family of Muslims and are eager to deny them a sense of belonging based on hearsay, fact or fiction. Politically they are not comfortable either as some of us are not. But most of us would like to embrace every one who calls himself/herself a Muslim, just as we boast that Prophet Essa, Musa, Ibrahim and others were Muslims because they believe in a God and the accountability day.

Islam is about Justice and when we deny some one the same rights as we have, then we cannot call it Justice. Our moral standing and Eemaan (faith) will be strong when we truly believe that Justice is not for our own kind, but for every human being, Muslim or not.

We have to take a position and embrace every Muslim and not do the hair splitting. If you give the Danda (stick) to orthodox Wahhabi, Shia, Sunni, Ismaili, Bohra, Ahmadiyya, Kurd or other group to lash out, they would declare every one to be a non-Muslim other than themselves and perhaps give each one of us at least one lash. Isn’t this the reason we have Islam where a rich or poor, Alim (scholar) or Jahil (ignorant) can stand in the same line in presence of God Almighty as equals? After all, if we die, each one of us will be buried on equal terms. Only Allah knows and he reserves the right to judge one’s Emaan, and one’s Niyyah and not any one else. This is our God given freedom.

If we need to have the moral strength, we have to consider dropping the barriers for greater good. We have to work for it, we have to do the Jihaad within, we have to fight the "desire" to compel others to be like us, isn’t this Jihad a legitimate Jihaad?

There is quite a lot of raw, civil and good expressions included in the comments sections http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2008/04/ahmadiyya-muslims-what-next.html .

Jazak Allah Khair
Mike Ghouse

# # # Additional appeal #2:

I am not an Ahmadiyya, but as a Muslim, I will stand up for their right to practice their version of the faith as it works for them. We do not have to subscribe to their version, nor do we have to become obsessed in judging their Eeman (faith). You and I do not own ISLAM, Islam is not anyone' property to claim exclusive rights to it. Just as you subscribe to it, others do too, let every one subscribe in their own way. If God wanted us to be a homogenous beings, he would have made us Farishtas (angels), he wanted us to be unique.

May God bless you and cause you to become a part of the mainstream Islam, where every one is honored with their differences and accept every one as a Muslim, as long as they believe in God and his prophet and the day of judgment.

# # # Additional appeal #3:

I am speaking from a Majoritarianism V. Minoriatarianism perspective. The civility of a group is determined by how it treats its weak, its children, its women, it older folks.

A few of us claim that Islam has been around from Ibrahim's time and our explanation is that Islam means submission to the will of God, hence Musa was Muslim, and Essa was a Muslim. Yet, we do not want the same definition to be used by others.

Shahadah is the door that opens every one to be called a Muslim. In fact, that is the first thing required of any one to be a Muslim. As Muslims we have to strive for Justice - and Justice is negation of oppression.

Learning about others is critical and I have been to the Ahmadiyya Mosque, and at least the Qur'aan I picked from the Mehraab (book shelf), walking around the Masjid was the same, as I glance through many of the Sarah's. www.Alislam.org is their website.

Sunnis declaring Shia as non Muslim and vice-versa (Mecca's Mufti) is an endless loop. We have to leave the judgment to Allah and accept the diversity within Islam. Our fight should be focused on dismantling the false propaganda against Muslims – The Ahmadiyya are doing a good job in sharing about Islam, and I have been in their company a few times in the interfaith meetings. I did not hear anything contrary, at least in the public.

Alhamdu Lillah, Indonesian government is not going to pass the laws. However, this issue will not go away. The politics in us has to manufacture an enemy, and for a few among us, Ahmadiyya are the easy prey. We don't need to eat from the same plate, but let's do our jihad against this hostility.

A few of my friends suggest me not to take up these issues, I disagree, God has DNA'd each one of us to do a few things in life. Some of us are volunteers and serve others and some don't. Some day more and more Muslims will see the wisdom of Sura Hujurat, verse 49.

My role model is Prophet Muhammad, and I would like to emulate as much as I can, as most of the Muslims do. One of his roles was to speak up and stand up for justice, it did not matter to him if Khadija and Ali were the only two followers, then later on with 313 followers he stood up against the ooo's. He stood his ground despite the persecution. There is a lot we can learn from this.
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# # # Additional appeal #4:
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In the previous posting a clarification was made that we have the right to judge one's deviant social behavior as to theft, fornication, cheating etc, where as one's faith, an inner matter will be judged by God on the Day of Judgment, only God knows and is aware of our intentions.

To me Prophet Muhammad was the last prophet. Ahmadiyya interpretation works for them, as they believe in it. Neither Shia, Sunni, Ahmadi, Wahhabi have to accept each other’s point of view, we do differ on different issues. Each set has its own peculiarities that the others do not share, that is given, and we have to live with it, as we cannot compel any one to believe what he or she does not.

The choices are: i) compel them to change their belief ii) deny them their right to believe in Islam in their own way iii) and deny them the right to call themselves Muslims. This assumes that we don't need to consult and that when consulted and if the majority agrees to impose all the three choices, we have to go by the majority. None of this can be good for all times.

What if the whole nation of Indonesia becomes Ahmadiyya or powerful, can they reverse the above choices made by Sunni Muslims? Would that be legitimate? The Criminal Ferdinand has done that in 1492, Criminal Hitler has done that around 1940, in both instances the world stood by doing nothing.

Most Muslims believe that Islam is for all times, it is big enough to accommodate and live with the whole diverse universe without conflicts and without compelling others to be subservient, and letting every one who he or she is remain who they want to be. God's model of diversity is impeccable with the matter, the Sun, the planets, and the whole universe obeys God, meaning they do what they were created for. He wants us to know each other and the best among us is the one who is best in conduct, Allah is aware.

Mohammed Irtaza quotes Qur'aan below “those who take heed and lead a righteous life, will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.”

I am grateful to almighty that I am not obligated to any one but God. I do not fear any one but God. Thanks God I do not intend to please anyone at the cost of pleasing the creator. Speak the truth as I know and understand. Thanks God again, no Imam, no Muslim scholar, No Muslim has ever pushed me to compromise, we debate, we argue, but no one has ever compelled me. The Public should know that Muslims debate and discuss issues, and they agree and disagree. They are as democratic as anyone can get. For every three Muslims, we can find five opinions.

My sincere request to my Muslim brothers and sisters is to resist the temptations to deny Ahmadiyya to call themselves Muslims. In the long haul, it is the good thing do for Muslims and all. Let people live the way they want to, that is God's intention. God would have made the whole world Christians, Muslims, Hindus or Jews, he could have done that, but like his cosmos is diverse, he expects us to be different and maintain that uniqueness. He wants us to learn about each other so we can live in Harmony. Quraan, 49:17

Mike Ghouse is a Speaker, Thinker, Writer and a Moderator. He is a frequent guest on talk radio and local television network discussing Pluralism, politics, Islam, Religion, Terrorism, India and civic issues. He is the founder of the World Muslim Congress, a group committed to building bridges and nurturing a world of co-existence. He also heads the foundation for pluralism, an organization committed to studying religious pluralism and pluralistic governance. His personal website is http://www.mikeghouse.net/ and his writings are on the above websites as well as several of the ancillary Blogs listed on the sites.

# # # # #

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2008/4/18/worldupdates/2008-04-18T131929Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_-331086-1&sec=Worldupdates

Indonesia plans to ban "heretical" Muslim sect
JAKARTA (Reuters) - Indonesia is drafting a decree that will ban a Muslim sect that has been branded heretical by most Muslims, an official said on Friday.
The Ahmadiyya sect views itself as Muslim but it has been branded a heretical group by the Indonesian Ulemas Council, the secular country's highest Muslim authority, which has issued a fatwa, or edict, against it.
A team with officials from two government ministries and the attorney general's office has recommended the government ban the sect because its teachings deviate from the central tenets of Islam, said the team's deputy head Wisnu Subroto.
He said the religious affairs ministry, the home affairs ministry and the attorney general's office were drafting a joint decree that would require Ahmadiyya followers to return to mainstream Islam.

"The content is a strong warning to Ahmadiyya followers to not deviate from the core teachings," Subroto told Reuters.

He added that the draft was expected to be completed later this month.
Mainstream Muslims reject Ahmadiyya's claim of the prophethood of its founder, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, who died in 1908 in India. Most Muslims believe that Mohammad is the last of the Prophets.

Some of the sect's other teachings are also considered deviant by both Sunni and Shia, the two major branches of Islam, and some Muslim countries do not accept the Ahmadiyya’s as Muslim.
In the past, Islamic radicals have damaged mosques and other facilities belonging to Ahmadiyya’s in Indonesia.

The Indonesian Muslim Forum (FUI), a group of some 50 Muslim organisations, on Friday urged President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono to disband Ahmadiyya and seize all its assets.
Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim nation, but groups branded as deviant or heretical periodically spring up.

Around 85 percent of Indonesia's 226 million people are Muslims. Most of them are moderates who tolerate other beliefs.

#####

Bully pulpit
Apr 24th 2008 BANGKOK
From The Economist print edition

Religious freedom is put at risk by political expediency
http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11090607

SEVERAL thousand hardline Muslims protested outside President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono's palace in Jakarta on April 20th demanding that he ban Ahmadiyah, an unorthodox but moderate Muslim sect founded in 19th-century India that claims around 200,000 members across Indonesia. At an earlier meeting of one of the groups involved, a leader was filmed chanting “Kill Ahmadiyah! Kill! Kill! Kill!” Far from having these extremists arrested for inciting violence, Mr Yudhoyono was this week considering pandering to them by issuing a decree to restrict Ahmadiyah's freedom of worship. One group of advisers has urged him to do so, while others were counselling against a move that would violate constitutional guarantees of religious freedom.

Reuters

“X” marks the spotThe proposed ban has its roots in Mr Yudhoyono's tender treatment of the Indonesian Ulemas Council (MUI), a semi-official group of Muslim clerics that was created during the authoritarian regime of Suharto (1966-98). The president nodded his approval as the MUI issued fatwas against “deviant” sects. On April 23rd Abdul Salam, a self-proclaimed prophet who leads another unorthodox group, al-Qiyadah al-Islamiah, was jailed for four years for blasphemy. MUI's fatwas have also given vigilante groups an excuse to attack sects' members and their homes and mosques. In Ahmadiyah's case the fatwas have also prompted another Suharto-era creature, the Co-ordinating Board for Monitoring Mystical Beliefs in Society, to launch an inquisition.

In January the board said it had decided not to call for a ban because Ahmadiyah's leaders in Indonesia had issued a statement affirming that Muhammad was the last prophet, rather than Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Indian mystic who founded the group. But this month the board declared that since Ahmadiyah had gone back on this pledge to “correct” its beliefs, a ban was now in order. Government officials then said that a decree against Ahmadiyah, though not necessarily an outright ban, was being prepared. Last weekend, police forced Ahmadiyah to cut short its annual congress in Bali.

As elsewhere, there are differences among Indonesia's Ahmadis over the meaning of their founder's claims to prophethood. However, under Article 29 of Indonesia's constitution—“The state guarantees all persons the freedom of worship, each according to his own religion or belief”—their beliefs are their own affair.

Unfortunately, it is not that simple. The constitution's guarantee of religious freedom is immediately preceded by an apparently contradictory affirmation that “the state shall be based upon the belief in the one and only God.” Indonesian law requires citizens to belong to one of six officially approved religions even though three are not monotheistic: Buddhists and Confucianists have no god; Hindus have lots of them. Now that Indonesia is a democracy, the constitutional guarantee of freedom of worship might be thought to trump all other arguments. But the mess has yet to be cleared up by the courts.

Yet Mr Yudhoyono's government can do the right thing when pushed. After the Bali bombings in 2002 it rounded up most leaders of Jemaah Islamiah (JI), the jihadist group responsible. Three of the bombers were sentenced to death and face execution shortly. Two more JI leaders, arrested last year, were sentenced to jail terms this week. However, while it is contemplating banning peaceable Ahmadiyah, the government has been reluctant to prohibit JI despite its atrocious violence. It may do so now that the courts, in this week's sentences, have at last labelled JI a terrorist group. There have also been no moves to ban the local chapter of Hizb-ut-Tahrir, a radical group that, although it does not preach violence, does call for the downfall of the Indonesian state and its replacement with a caliphate.

Mr Yudhoyono may believe that he is avoiding conflict by appeasing the country's vociferous but unrepresentative radical Islamist fringe. His liberal critics retort that the state has a duty to protect minorities, rather than sacrifice them to some supposed public good. In any case, suppressing Ahmadiyah and al-Qiyadah al-Islamiah would be more likely to damage Indonesia's stability and unity than letting their members worship freely. The country's many Hindus, Christians and members of other faiths would surely be asking themselves: “Are we next?”

Some Ahmadiyah members have called for help from the United Nations' Human Rights Commission. The outside world—which has so far seen Mr Yudhoyono as a democrat, a reformist and a leader of moderate Islam—might indeed make it clear to him that giving in to the bullies and repressing a peaceable religion would have unfortunate consequences.

# # #


Torching of Ahmadiyya Mosque in Indonesia a Disgrace
http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/torching_of_ahmadiyya_mosque_in_indonesia_a_disgrace/0016171
by Robert Salaam

I feel that I have to truly speak out against the crime against Jammat Ahmadiyya that was brought to my attention. I posted the wonderful commentary by Mike Ghouse entitled “Ahmadiyya Muslims What Next” and he was absolutely right.

With all due respect, my Indonesian Muslim brothers and sisters must be loosing their minds. In truth the entire Muslim world is loosing their mind, especially as it relates to this MUSLIM community. Yes, I said Muslim community. How in the world can you call yourself a Muslim and want to ban another group that says they are Muslim too? So what if you don’t agree with their practice or even their theology. The one thing that should bind us all is our belief in One God, Allah (swt) and our belief in the Prophet (saw). Any person or group that upholds that is a Muslim.

This is where hypocrisy comes in. Muslims are so quick to fight against one another over matters of variance in practice, but are so slow to embrace one another based on our commonality. We will readily engage in interfaith with other religions, accept others with open arms, let them speak in our Masjids, etc. But God forbid we do that with other Muslims who think or practice other than ourselves.

We love to bash the West and complain about how we are minorities and are denied equal rights, yet in our so-called Muslim countries we refuse to do that ourselves? Why complain about something you won’t readily do yourselves?

This is why I understand why non-Muslims look at us with such strange looks. Look at us, we are backward and confused when we can’t realize the obvious. Muslims by definition are supposed to be the example of what the world should be. I must say, if we define Muslim by the actions of those in Indonesia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and every other “Muslim” nation that bans this group or any other group, then I would rather be an apostate.

You can’t even be a Muslim acting the way they are acting. A Muslim is supposed to be one in which his/her neighbors feel safe. How in the hell can these “Muslims” call themselves such when not even fellow Muslims can feel safe in their presence?

How in the world can you say you are Islamically justified in banning a group that says there is no God, but Allah? What kind of Muslim are you?

I am not Ahmadiyya, however, you can judge a tree by the fruit it bears. This Jammat in all my experiences have been one of the most tolerant, welcoming, and peaceful community I have had the privilege to get to know. I have Ahmadiyya friends, I have attended their functions, and I can tell you through my Sunni eyes, that if they are not Muslim, then I truly don’t know what Islam is and I should go back to being a Christian!

I know many of these brothers and sisters, I can tell you with resolute honesty that to me, they are as if we had the same parents. I love these brothers and sisters, surely we disagree on matters of Fiqh, but so do my wife and I! Some of us in our arrogance and lack of faith in Allah (swt) would rather swat at gnats. We bring the chastisement of Allah (swt) on ourselves.

So what they say the Messiah has come back? What does that have to do with Shahaddah, Salah, Zawm, Zakat, and Hajj? Do they teach against those things? Do they even pray differently? Many of us are so foolish that we would readily have the good Rev. Dr. such and such address us in the Masjid or non-Muslim Mayoral candidate whomever, but don’t let it be someone who calls themselves a Muslim that practices or believes a little different from us. Don’t even let them in our households, bar them from burying their dead, and of all things bar them from the Holy House of all Muslims!

I condemn these detestable, hypocritical, and un-Islamic acts done against this community. I pray Allah (swt) is swift in His chastisement against any Muslim or so-called Muslim state that wants to or has banned any Muslim or group that prays to Him.

How dare you brothers and sisters that do this. In this time where Muslims should be gathering and supporting one another, you want to continue the divide. Instead of being the defender and protector of the oppressed, you now want to be the oppressor. Allah (swt) loves NOT the oppressor.

I sincerely tell you that you seal your fate and you will be brought to ruin as most “Muslim” nations like Pakistan, until you submit and unite.

I ask all Muslims who truly believe, to oppose these actions as well as those well recorded elsewhere. All Muslim lands should belong to any who believe in Allah (swt), His messenger (saw), and the last day. Any who oppose that, should be done away with. They should not be supported in any manner as they have left the fold of Islam and have become a persecutor of fellow Muslims which is Haram.

I ask that we rally around the Ahmadiyya Community the latest and perpetual victim of “Muslim” violence, ignorance, and hypocrisy. I ask that all Muslims get it together and aid one another. It doesn’t matter if you pray with your arms folded, pray with your arms at your sides, pray with your hands on your heart, etc. It doesn’t matter if you expect the Messiah to come with Imam Mahdi, expect Jesus (as) to descend from the clouds, or believe that he came 100 years ago already. It doesn’t matter if you prayer toward the Holy House in Islamabad, Cairo, Jakarta, Paris, London, Dakar, or Washington DC. Muslims we have to unite and be brothers and protectors of one another!

Oh Allah (swt), I ask that you guide our hearts and our minds. I ask that you turn us nearer to you and forgive our transgressions. I ask that you renew in us the spirit of true brother and sister hood. I ask that you remind us that all are brothers who seek you and follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw). Oh Allah (swt), I ask that you turn back the Shaitan who is winning over those who say they serve you in Indonesia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and everywhere where your name is uttered. We seek refuge in you from Shaitan the accursed and ask that you deafen our ears to his whispers. Oh Allah (swt) protect the Muslim oppressed, especially those oppressed by other Muslims, such as Jammat Ahmaddiya. Oh Allah (swt) bless and strengthen them and all Muslims of conscience who speak out against such atrocities. Oh Allah (swt) remind us to follow your perfected Deen and grant us your Mercy, for you are the Most Merciful, Compassionate, Dispenser of Grace. It is to You Alone that we submit.

Ameen

Visit Robert Salaam’s site at http://salaamsblog.wordpress.com/

57 comments:

  1. Dear Mr. Ghouse:

    Thank you very much for writing this. The situation in Indonesia has been very troubling. However, yesterday the Jakarta Post published this article stating that the Advisory Counsel has been advising President Yudhoyono not to ban the Ahmadiy'ya Movement. There have been some reports that President Yudhoyono has agreed to not ban the Movement. We will see what happens. We can only hope and pray that -- if this report is true -- other governments, especially Pakistan, will follow this lead.

    Lubna Malik

    ReplyDelete
  2. Mr. Ghouse,

    Assalamo alaikum! You are, in my opinion absolutely right. When they call the
    Ahmaddiyya kafirs there is silence because the majority says, "I'm not
    Ahmadiyya." Then they call the Alevis kafirs. And once again the majority is
    silent Then the Ismailis are called kafirs. In fact they call all the Shi'a
    kafirs. And the Chishtis, and the Naqshbandis, and the Bektashis and all of
    the Sufi tariqats. And the progressives. And the rationalists. And the women
    who don't wear head scarves. And the men who don't wear beards. In the end our
    ummah is reduced to a few closed-minded individuals sitting in the darkness
    alone.

    Enough is enough. I think we should have a moratorium on declaring who is and
    is not a Muslim. As I read the history of Medina I fail to see the Prophet
    calling even the munafiqs who sought to destroy him kafirs. Who are we to do
    this?

    All the Best,

    Vernon Schubel,

    ReplyDelete
  3. Those Muslims who are in the United states complain about being a minority, and they come from Pakistan or Bangalesh. They need to be the first ones to stand for another minority else where.

    Let's see their hypocricy

    ReplyDelete
  4. Dear Mike Ghous, first of all if all the ulema say one thing and you alone with few people say other thing
    who is to be consudered right. All the Muslim Ulema say Bahoy, Ahmadies are wrong in their belief but
    only you say they are right then what should we do. It has been openly stated by the Ulema of entire
    Muslim World that Ahmadies is non Islamic, but denying them you say you areare right . Are you Authority
    on Islam? Do you know Islam more than Moulana Moudoodi, Maulana Abu Kalam Azad, and ulemas of
    entire Arab world. If yes I follow you or you stop preaching non Islamic things. Why Ahmadies say
    prayers in separate mosque and in separate gathering, are others not Muslim. If Shia and Sunni
    can offer prayers under one Imam and in one Masjid why Ahmadies do not join us. Why Ahmadies
    say that other than them all are Kafir? Please read Ahmady religon and then advocate their cause,
    I will be with you. Do you think Ulema of Indonesia are fools and lack Islamic knowlege as
    compared to your knowlege. You live in USA where you have forgotten Islam, you live among those
    where there is no difference between sister, mother and girl friend. sister sleeps with brother,
    obsenity at at full , do you call this moderism? A daughter goes out for sex with his boy friend
    infront of his father, the father shame lessly loves to hear that his daughter had sexual
    relation with so many persons. Moving naked is fashon. Having kid before
    marraige is culture. Mr. Mike read Islam in true sense and only then critisize
    the knowlege of educated Ulemas. Read Quran and its translation in case you do not know
    Arabic. If you know Arabic you will understand Quran better than me at least. My Dear Mike
    instead of becoming sentimental and propogate democracy we should learn the crux and then
    propogate our feelings. I have no right to condemn your thoughts but I will react if you
    say any thing against Islam or Islamic values. I am not ready to listen against our Beloved
    Holy Prophet. I have closed my account in ABN Amro Bank, stopped using stuff made in
    Holland, why? Think i love my Prophet and my coutry and off course Islam. I know you will
    neither publish this message of mine nor reply it. Reason you know. Iftekhar Alavi

    ReplyDelete
  5. AA,

    Dear Iftekhar Alvi.

    First of all, I am not an authority on Islam and I will never claim to be one.

    I am an average Muslim, meaning a Muslim who follows Qur'an, Al-Hujurat, Surah 49:13, respect other beings, not compel or oppress others against their will, and a Muslim who does his best to contribute towards a just society., at least a tad more than his own share of doing good to God’s creation. The least we can do is to speak up when a wrong thing is happening, that is following our Prophet.

    As Muslims we are losing moral grounds just because our morality is shaped by how we act; act one way when the crowd is with us and differently when there is no support. Our character is determined by our consistency in having a just behavior. Whether we live as a majority or a minority, the principles should be the same. Fortunately, the majority of Muslims are good people, only a few are not, and that is the case with every society.

    Our values ought to be grounded in justice and not molded by Government policies. What if the Ahmadiyyas pour in wealth in Pakistan, give jobs to every one, and serve every hungry child, and take care of the down trodden and the Pakistani Government reverses the policy. Then a generation from then, the people will not have anti-Ahmadiyya sentiments. What is the basis for such an attitudinal change? Shouldn’t our attitudes be based on Justice rather than politics… do we have to manufacture some on for the purpose of pandering to our hate emotion?

    The picture you have painted about the life in the United States is wrong….absolutely wrong. Humans are same no matter where they live. American Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus are as moral as Pakistani Muslims, Christians, Hindus or Zoroastrians, a majority of us are good ones and a few extremists, a few immoral and a few Jahil no matter where we live.

    Justice is the core value of Islam, oppression of people is against Islamic values. I am sure you are familiar with the stories of Hazrat Omar punishing his own son against a complaint from a person of Jewish faith when he did not get a fair dealing in a business transaction.

    As Muslims, we have to be guided by just principles, not what suits us when we are a majority.

    Jazak Allah Khair

    Mike Ghouse

    ReplyDelete
  6. Advisors counsel SBY against banning Ahmadiyah

    Desy Nurhayati , http://www.thejakartapost.com/print/167033

    The Presidential Advisory Council is advising President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono to cancel the issuance of a joint ministerial decree to outlaw "heretical" Islamic sect Jamaah Ahmadiyah.

    A ban on Ahmadiyah would be a "bad precedent" to Indonesia's democracy and freedom of religion, council member and legal expert Adnan Buyung Nasution told a news conference after a meeting with sect leaders here Tuesday.

    At the meeting, Ahmadiyah representatives were accompanied by activists from the Alliance of Religious and Belief Freedom.

    "We will immediately advise the President to prevent the issuance of the decree for the sake of upholding democracy, tolerance and freedom of religion," Buyung said.

    "We only have a little time to analyze the issue and meet with the President before the joint decree is issued. But we can assure that we will seriously handle this matter."

    Coordinating Minister for Political, Legal and Security Affairs Widodo Adi Sucipto said last week the government would issue a joint decree based on a recommendation by the Coordinating Board for Monitoring Mystical Beliefs in Society (Bakor Pakem).

    The decree is currently being drafted by the Religious Affairs Ministry, the Home Ministry and the Attorney General's Office.

    Bakor Pakem recommended the government outlaw Ahmadiyah for failing to honor the 12-point declaration regarding faith and social values consistent to Islamic values after being given three months to prove its commitment.

    The interdepartmental board led by the junior attorney general of intelligence said it found Ahmadiyah had continued to follow activities that deviated from mainstream Islamic teachings.

    Buyung said the board and the planned joint decree had no strong legal basis, and were only serving to take repressive actions against a group of people.

    "We think the establishment of the board itself has no firm legal basis even though they acted based on the 1965 law on the prevention of the misuse and disgrace of religion," he said.

    Buyung was quoted by detik.com as saying all but one member of the nine-member Presidential Advisory Council opposed a ban on Ahmadiyah.

    He identified the disagreeing member as Ma'ruf Amin, who is also deputy leader of the Indonesian Ulema Council that publicly declared Ahmadiyah a "heretical" Islamic sect.

    Ahmadiyah spokesman Ahmad Mubarik said his group slammed the Bakor Pakem pronouncement that the sect hadn't committed to the 12-point declaration.

    There should be an independent team, instead of the board, to decide whether Ahmadiyah had complied with the declaration or not, he said.

    Ahmadiyah advocacy team member Lamardy said the sect demanded the President protect people in their religious beliefs.

    Bakor Pakem, which was established in 1994, consists of senior officials from the Attorney General's Office, the Indonesian Military, the National Police, the Religious Affairs Ministry and the Home Ministry.

    The Jakarta Legal Aid Institute, which is grouped in the Alliance of Religious and Belief Freedom, urged the Attorney General's Office to dissolve the board, saying it violated people's basic rights.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Posted in the economist

    http://www.economist.com/members/persona.cfm?econUId=2958209

    ReplyDelete
  8. MikeGhouse@aol.com wrote:

    The real issue is not about who is a Muslim, but it is about how the majorities treat their minorities, how the strong treat their weak, how the powerful treat the less powerful...

    The real question that we need to address is should we let a majority determine what one believes, wears or eats? Can the Majority in the United States do that? Can the majority in Indonesia do that? Should that work in India? Can the Sunni Majority in Saudi Arabia harass the Shia? Can the Shia Majority in Iran harass the Sunnis? We have to catch up with our own integrity. Those who were a majority elsewhere are a minority somewhere else.

    We have to change this outlook.

    Mike Ghouse

    In a message dated 4/24/2008 1:57:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bintwaleed writes:
    The only regret is that Indonesian government is taking so long to declare the Mirzais/ Qadianis, enemies of Islam disguised in the garb of Muslims, as non-Muslims. I hope other Muslim countries follow the suit. - Bint Waleed

    ReplyDelete
  9. Bintwaleed,

    If a Nigerian has lived in the US legally, he certainly can claim.

    Ahmadiyya's have been Muslims just as Sunni, Shia, Ismaili, Bohra and others, they have every right to believe what they believe and claim what they claim; Muslims.

    You don't own Islam, neither do I. Islam is a belief any one can subscribe to in whatever degree they want. Thanks God, those days are going to be gone, where one can compel others to comply 100% to others whims. Religion is between you and God, it is not a public display show, and no one needs to wear neon signs on their foreheads.

    After all on the day of judgment neither our prophet, nor our parents nor our kids will come to our rescue, we are fully responsible for our own acts; good, bad and ugly.

    Islam is about freedom, and not bondage.

    One of the biggest pieces of wisdom in Islam is "there is no compulsion".

    If every darn nation becomes a fanatic... you and I cannot live on any part of the earth...even if we were to gather in Islands of all Sunnis, all Shias, all Catholics...all Hindus.. we have to believe in no compulsion, if not, some one in each Island will want to frighten the others and compel the others to behave.

    By the way, I am not an Ahmadiyya, but I would defend their right to believe what they do, and I may not agree with you on this, but I will stand up for you if some one were to deny your rights. That is Islam my dear, to stand up for justice and to stand for the God given rights of individuals.


    Mike Ghouse,
    A humble Muslim
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    In a message dated 4/24/2008 4:41:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bintwaleed writes:

    Would the US government accept a Nigerian’s claim that he’s an American citizen with a right to live, work, and vote in the USA? If not, and certainly not, then why not? Would you call this an unfair treatment, majority wrongfully denying rights of minority, or strong exploiting the weak? Of course, none of it is true.

    The Nigerian simply does not meet the prerequisite for being an American and thus not recognized as an American citizen.

    Unlike Hinduism or Judaism, where even an atheist can be a Hindu or Jew, Islam is a very well-defined religion with sine qua non, essential, and must requirements to be part of its community.

    It’s not a matter of majority treating the minority; it’s simply that Qadianis beliefs put them out of the fold of Islam.

    Did you get it now!!

    Bint Waleed

    ReplyDelete
  10. Websites about Ahmadiyya

    http://www.ahmadiyya.us/
    http://alislam.org

    ReplyDelete
  11. Salaam Mike

    on this issue I have to take the same view as the "mainstream".

    Fraud is fraud is fraud is fraud.

    Anyone who takes the time to sturdy the issues can recognize that the Qadiyani are a separate faith that is representing themselves as being of Islam.

    I do not claim to know what is the correct answer here, but for Muslims to "look the other way" and pretend this is not corruption of Islam would be as inherently evil as it is to do the same towards those who commit transgressive violence in the name of our Deen.

    Waleed Kavalec

    ReplyDelete
  12. Dear Waleed,

    The Ahmadiyya certainly vary with the Mainstream (Sunni? Shia?) Muslims in terms of finality of the message. The issue is no doubt significant, but let’s views this from a larger context of the shrinking world.

    Twenty years from now, there will not be a city in the world, where you will not find people of different faiths living and working together. As Muslims, our role is to work for peaceful societies, reducing conflicts and nurturing good will - each one is responsible for our actions and not any one else and it is in the interest of us and others that we know each other. (Qur’aan, Sura 49:17).

    The issue of majority minority relations will become the most critical element of the society. Religion is truly a private relationship between God and oneself... if not, Allah would have made our parents responsible for our actions, their parents for their actions, or Prophet would have assigned it to the clergy and relieved us all from being responsible for our sins. God did not do that, he is absolutely clear that you and I are fully responsible for our own actions and NO ONE will come to our rescue. That is a powerful message from the creator - we are individually responsible for our actions.

    The Mufti of Mecca declares Shia’s as non-Muslim and am sure some Imam in Shia would give it back... where does this end?

    My commentary was about the majority-minority relations. There are some hypocrites among us (Muslim, Hindus and others) who would want our minorities to adopt our names, our culture and follow our system. Let's say Ahmadiyya are not Muslims.... So what is wrong if they were to resembles and follow us? I.e., if a few God appointed people want to declare others as they wish. I am sure God would authorize them to do that as he likes to keep his job on the Day of Judgment.

    If we cannot defend the rights of minorities, any minorities, then should any one defend our rights? You and I are minorities in the United States, we are here because Dalip Singh Saund fought the rights of Indians to become Citizens of this nation, Martin Luther Kings fought for the freedom of all... and to have balance in life for receiving all that good, we have to give it back. We have to stand up for the rights of others, whether it is a majority of minority, God wants justness.

    There are more Muslims who believe in Justice, but we need to muster up courage to speak up. Prophet Muhammad has given us so many models to follow, one of them is speaking out, despite being three, then 313, and they spoke out against injustice. We have to fight for justice, remembers, justice for others is justice for us.

    Mike Ghouse

    ReplyDelete
  13. Mike:

    You say, “If a Nigerian has lived in the US legally, he certainly can claim.”

    Similarly, if a Qadiani gives up his Qadiani religion and accepts Islam he will not only be our countryman but also our brother-in-faith. Secularists base their relation on geographical boundaries and we Muslims on faith.

    Bint Waleed

    ReplyDelete
  14. AA,



    Bint Waleed and friends;



    Thank you for sharing your thoughts.



    I am speaking from a different perspective; Majoritarianism V. Minoriatarianism. The civility of a group is determined by how it treats its weak, its children, its women and its older folks.



    Again, should Americans say we are a Christian majority, you will be on par with us if you embrace our faith, India can do that, Saudi can do that to Shia's, Iran can do that to Sunnis...Where is the end? It flies in the face of God's words - if he had wished he could have made us all the same, he chose to make us different and then tells us that the best among us is one who engages with the others and attempts to know each other.



    Islam is not about forcing others to conform to be on par, that flies in the face of the Madinah pact to live in harmony and practice their faith freely.



    There are some out there - who claim Islam has been around from Ibrahim's time and the justification they give is Islam means submission to the will of God, hence Musa was Muslim, and Essa was a Muslim. Yet, they do not want the same definition to be used by others.



    Shahadah is the door that opens every one to be called a Muslim. In fact, that is the first thing required of any one to be a Muslim. As Muslims we have to strive for Justice - and that is negation of oppression.



    From what I hear today, Alhamdu Lillah, Indonesian government is not going to pass the laws. However, this issue will not go away. The politics in us has to manufacture an enemy, and for the Muslim Neocons, Ahmadiyya are the easy prey. We don't need to act like the Neocons, they are nothing but destructive




    Shahadah is the door that opens every one to be called a Muslim. Infact, that is the first thing required of any one to be a Muslims. As Muslims we have to strive for Justice - and that is negation of oppression.

    From what I hear today, Alhamdu Iillah, Indonesian government is not going to pass the laws. However, this issue will not go away. The politics in us has to manufacture an enemy, and for the Muslim Neocons, Ahmadiyya are the easy prey. We don't need to act like the Neocons, they are nothing but destructive.

    Mike Ghouse

    ReplyDelete
  15. From Kaleem Kawaja:

    ASAK,
    > Ahmadiyas should not be banned in any country; they should be
    declared non-Muslims. They should be told to call themselves "Ahmadiyas", not "Ahmadiya Muslims", because they are NOT Muslims. Just as in Muslim countries non-Muslims are not harassed and are allowed to practice their non-Muslim faith; Ahmadiyas should be treated similarly."As I read the history of Medina I fail to see the Prophetcalling even the munafiqs who sought to destroy him kafirs."
    >
    > This is a false and misleading statement. Prophet Mohammad always
    distinguished between Muslims and non-Muslims, always distinguished
    between those who believed in Islam and those who did not. But he
    did not harass non-believers and non-Muslims. Immediately after the
    demise of Mohammad, his first successor, the first Caliph of Islam, Abubakar conducted several wars against several people in Arabia who claimed that they were prophets after Mohsammad. The caliphate of that time declared those people apostates and the wars were called "apostasy wars".
    >
    > This subject has nothing to do with democracy or pluralism or human rights or poverty or whatever. It is a simple case of a set of people who want to corrupt the core Islamic belief, and yet call themselves Muslims and their deviant faith a branch of Islam. It is totally wrong to confuse this corruption by comparing it with the diversity of Islamic sects eg Sunnis, Shias, Hanafis, Malakis, Shaafeis, Hanabalis, Wahabis, Barelvis, Deobandis etal.
    >
    > If a set of Ahmedis do philanthrophic work in a Muslim countries, Muslims will thank them just as they thank the many Christians who do acts of philanthrophy/charity. But Muslims do not accept those Christians as followers of Islam

    > Kaleem Kawaja

    ReplyDelete
  16. Both for and against banning the heretical sect have their viewpoint. The question is whether the Ahmediyas are Muslims or not? Let them decide it themselves. Do they consider the other 'Muslims" - Sunni, Shias etc, as Muslim and would pray in their mosques in the iqtda of their prayer leaders? If yes, they are Muslims, if not, they are out of the pale of Islam.

    Col. Jafri (Retd) - Pakistan:

    ReplyDelete
  17. You wrote;

    "Should the bad decisions of a few in the name of Islam, reflect on the Muslim community at large? Now, Indonesia is planning to ban the "heretical" Muslim sect, should that reflect on Islam? The least we can do is to speak up against the tyranny of one group of people against the other".

    1) Quadianis / Ahmadis are not sect of Islam nor any school of thought. They are not Part of Islamic faith not by virtue of "BAD DECISIONOF FEW", but its the IJMAH, unanimaty, that Qadianis are not Muslims. Period.

    2) Please, do not mix the issues of civil, human rights of all people including quadianis with the theft of ISlamic or Muslim Glorious name by Quadianis themselves.Its a case of deception in the schrode of Islam.

    3) Declaration as Non Muslim is just stoping the theft of Islamic identity, as did Pakistan and majority of Muslim countries, including with IJMAH of all sects and schools of thoughts of Islam
    and Muslims.

    4) Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani caused injuries and committed blashmeous acts and remarks on the person of Holly Prophet (MPUH), you donot want to speak for
    Devil. Though no one suggest to not to protect the civil and human rights, life and property of all including followers of Quadiani faith / Cult. Our Prophet (MPUH) was mercy to all the mankind, we should remin kind to Quadianis as well, (without accepting the theft of Islamic / Muslim identity, do not yield to that) Many of them are coming back to Islam.

    Muhammad Salim Akhtar

    ReplyDelete
  18. I am speaking from a Majoritarianism V. Minoriatarianism perspective.The civility of a group is determined by how it treats its weak, its children, its women, it older folks.

    A few of us claim that Islam has been around from Ibrahim's time and our explanation is that Islam means submission to the will of God, hence Musa was Muslim, and Essa was a Muslim. Yet, we do not want the same definition to be used by others.

    Shahadah is the door that opens every one to be called a Muslim. In fact, that is the first thing required of any one to be a Muslim. As Muslims we have to strive for Justice - and Justice is negation of oppression.

    Learning about others is critical and I have been to the Ahmadiyya Mosque, and at least the Qur'aan I picked from the Mehraab, walking around the Masjid was the same, as I glance through many of the Sarah's. www.Alislam.org is their website.

    Sunnis declaring Shia as non Muslim and vice-versa (Mecca's Mufti) is an endless loop. We have to leave the judgment to Allah and accept the diversity within Islam. Our fight should be focused on dismantling the false propaganda against Muslims – The Ahmadiyya's are doing a good job in sharing about Islam, and I have been in their company a few times in the interfaith meetings. I did not hear anything contrary, at least in the public.

    Alhamdu Lillah, Indonesian government is not going to pass the laws. However, this issue will not go away. The politics in us has to manufacture an enemy, and for a few among us, Ahmadiyya's are the easy prey. We don't need to eat from the same plate, but let's do our jihad against this hostility.

    A few of my friends suggest me not to take up these issues, I disagree, God has DNA'd each one of us to do a few things in life. Some of us are volunteers and serve others and some don't. Some day more and more Muslims will see the wisdom of Sura Hujurat, verse 49.

    My role model is Prophet Muhammad, and I would like to emulate as much as I can, as most of the Muslims do. One of his roles was to speak up and stand up for justice, it did not matter to him if Khadija and Ali were the only two followers, then later on with 313 followers he stood up against the ooo's. He stood his ground despite the persecution. There is a lot we can learn from this.

    Jazak Allah Khair

    Mike Ghouse

    ReplyDelete
  19. Its futile to discuss this issue with people like Mike Ghouse and types.

    See the mail of Ms.Farzana Hassan,I know a lot of Hindus who have the same belief as mentioned by Farzana and if we apply the same principle then there is no Non Muslim in this world. Every one is Muslim in this world. right. God bless you.

    If Farzana has a right to interpret Quran according to her understanding , I too have the right to say these Ahmadis reject the clear cut Ayah of Quran pertaining to last seal of Prophet hood and accordingly they are rejector of Quran.

    the fact is that not only Qadianis, the rejectors of Hadeeth, Ismailis and Bohra and Zaidiyas, and Pervezis, Chakralwis, and all those who have hand made porridge of rules are out of pale of Islam. All of the originators of these Sects had belonged to a Muslim family once upon a time. That's all.

    Islam is not SUDOKO game that you can play accoridng to your fancies and whims.

    Neither Mike nor Farzana will accept my point Nor Real Muslims will ever accept their beliefs.

    No dialogue should be initiated with these people Let them waste their time whereever they wish it to be.

    khalid koraivi

    ReplyDelete
  20. Dear Khalid,

    Discussions will make our eeman stronger, Islam is not a weak faith for us to shy away from talking about any issue.

    Referring to people as "types" creates classes and thanks to the Prophet for delivering Islam to dissolve this very "types" and make it "all" with our own uniqueness.

    Farzana has her own understanding of Islam, just as you have your own, explain to her with Qur'aan if she is wrong, other wise consider her point of view before making a judgment. Let's not be rigid, our minds are not machines, they are made to absorb different ideas to continuously remain current. Let us not reduce Islam to a rigid dogma.

    I am not an Ahmadiyya, but as a Muslim, I will stand up for their right to practice their version of the faith as it works for them. We do not have to subscribe to their version, nor do we have to become obsessed in judging their eeman. You and I do not own ISLAM, Islam is not anyone' property to claim exclusive rights to it. Just as you subscribe to it, others do too, let every one subscribe in their own way. If God wanted us to be a homogenous beings, he would have made us Farishtas, he wanted us to be unique.

    May God bless you and cause you to become a part of the mainstream Islam, where every one is honored with their differences and accept every one as a Muslim, as long as they believe in God and his prophet and the day of judgement.

    Jazak Allah Khair

    Mike Ghouse

    ReplyDelete
  21. Mike,
    I appreciate your message of tolerance below

    Waleed and bint Waleed,

    From a strictly Quranic and theological perspective, there are three conditions a person needs to fulfill to qualify as a Muslim. These are belief in One God, the hereafter and the prophetic witness of Mohammad (not necessarily as the last messenger). "la Ilaha Illaah Mohamdur rasoonl ullah' doe not include that condition.
    Ahmadiya therefore qualify on all counts. You have no business disqualifying them on a difference of opinion based on a matter that is relatively unimportant.

    Farzana

    ReplyDelete
  22. what ever came after mohammed saw will be re-jected.
    they who ever disqualify themselves by not adhereing to the al islam that allah has ordered in al qur,an and the excellent life of nabi mohammed saw.
    what is the true meaning of muslim?what is the true meaning of al islam? frist one realy need to understand and know this knowledge be fore he/she can move on.
    we as muslm respect all of allahs creation.we follow what allah says in al qur,an over the opinions of others.
    the peace that comes from only allah as salaamu aliakum.

    muhammad a samad

    ReplyDelete
  23. Dear Mike Ghous
    I have read your fervent appeal to join you in writing to the Indonesian Government. I have also read the comments of Mr. Iftikhar Alavi. Before the appeal to the Indonesian Government or the Islamic Authority don't you think it will be more appropriate to find out what arguments will they be formulating to declare Ahmadiyya as non Muslims. Then it will be easier to counter those arguments. I can speculate one argument that Ahmadis believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a prophet. Mr. Alavi has pointed out that Ahmadis do not say prayers behind non Ahmadi Imam. My request is to find out the basis of declaring Ahmadis as non Muslims.

    My other point is that there are sects in Islam e.g. Sunny Muslim, Shiia Muslims, Deobandi Muslims, Wahhabi Muslims, Baha'i Muslims, Ismaili Muslims and many more. Why can't there be another sect as Ahmadi Muslim or simply Ahmadis. Correct me if I am wrong. I do not profess to have authentic knowledge of these sects and their basic differences. All sects are allowed to have their own faith and ways of prayers. Why can't Ahmadis have their own faith and ways of prayers. One thing I know: Their prayers are 100% exactly the same as Sunny Muslims, both in rituals and contents
    With Regards.
    Ghulam Yusuf

    ReplyDelete
  24. My dear ghous sorry to say you are not right in your assessment anout
    ahmadees. They have never ever been stopped from doing business
    or earning money. They have none community certers for non Ahmadies,
    even non Ahmadees are not provided treatment in their hospitals.
    Yes they do help each other but hardly help any non Ahmadee, exception for
    friends is there. To your information they have themself segregated
    from common masses. What was the need of having a separate city
    only and only for Ahmadees, in Pakistan which is known as Rabwah.
    Can you justify this act. Why Ahmadee do not offer prayers in
    others masjid and alloe others to say prayetrs in their mosque.
    They have beeen declared non Muslim because they have seprate
    religon. They have their own Prophet Mirza Ghulam Ahmed. Can you
    deny that no prophet has to come after Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa
    PBUH. And that wahee has been closed for ever. Then at the
    Character of their Prophet who dedidated his life in praise of British Raj.
    As per him he got Wahee through two Angels. They are spreading ahterd
    and wanrt rule Pakistan alone. What rught they have to be on top
    when deserving people are there. My Dear you have not understood
    their design and thinking. They show off as victim whereas theyn are not at all.
    Tell me who stopped them to have Mills ,offices and Business.
    Are they not in it in Pakistan. In their organization they first employ
    Ahmadee and then non Ahmadees. They call us Kafir. Why? They say
    that only they are Muslim and rest are Kafir. As per them you
    and me bothare Kafirs. Dear Ghous In Pakistan there is no discreemination
    on the base of religon. In Sind Hindus are ij Power in Baluchistan Hindus
    are in Power because of finances. Has ever any Ahmadee been convicted
    for the sake of religon. They paid crores of Rupees to late Zulfiqar
    Ali Bhutto in his election compaign, who declared them as non
    muslim. He was not a dictator,he was champion of democracy. Dear Mike see
    facts and do not be taken away because of prpaganda of Ahmadees.
    I hope you understand now. I am open for discussion with any one even
    Ahmadees who always run away from me.
    Iftekhar Alavi

    ReplyDelete
  25. Hello,
    I joined this group about two years ago but never shared my ideas and thoughts, I only read the e-mails from several members of this group (dallaspakistani@yahoogroups.com). I often thought that Mr. Mike Ghous is an Ismaili. Maybe my thought is wrong but I would like to know who is Mr. Mike. Ahmadi or Ismaili? I respect him because he is also a loving person and respects feelings of others like me. But here I am with Mr. Iftikhar Alvi. He is absolutely right and being a true muslims we cant tolerate if someone tries to deny principles of Islam and try to advocate somebody who dont believes in Khatim-ul-Nabiyeen Hazrat Mohammad (may peace be upon him) Ahmadis are not muslims because they dont believe in Khatam-e-Naboowat and I think if Indonasian government declares them as non muslims that will be a good for them and I believe Allah will reward them at the time of judgement day.
    I am sorry if my words have hurt anybody but remember Mr. Mike's love for Ahmadis have really hurt me a lot. Mr. Iftikhar Alvi God bless you we the muslim world really need people like you. Our Nabi is GREATEST than all and we can sacrifice our lives for him.

    Tahir Hussain

    ReplyDelete
  26. I am a Muslim, a Sunni if it makes a difference in building goodwill.

    I do not believe in getting pushed into a box. I realize that it will take a while for all of us to get to that point. On the other hand there is nothing wrong in accepting the diversity among us, it is not the difference, it is our attitude towards the difference that needs to be evaluated.

    First of all, please note that our forum or any other forum must values every opinion, I believe God has created us all equal, what we make out of it is our effort and God knows everything we do.


    This is the reason you will find legitimate criticism of issues (not individuals) is published on this forum. As a publisher and moderator of this group, I can simply delete the criticism leveled against me every now and then, but I don’t. You should not be surprised that Brother Iftekhar Alvis’s criticism is published here, as Muslims we have to engage in dialogue, listen to different point of views and not be judgmental, we have to respectfully disagree, but not deny each others’ point of view. We cannot expect the good things to happen, if we do not pave the way for a dialogue and debate.

    Several Imams, scholars and heads of organizations have expressed the need for the Muslim community to put our difference aside and come together for the common good of Muslims and the world. What is good for us has got to be good for others for it to sustain.

    Ahmadiyya no doubt differ from the Sunni thought, but Sunnis differ from Shia in a major way, especially the interpretation of Ahl-e-bait. But we have lived along for over 14 centuries. Some of us have issues with the newer group in the family of Muslims and are eager to deny them a sense of belonging based on hearsay, fact or fiction. Politically they are not comfortable either as some of us are not. But most of us would like to embrace every one who calls himself/herself a Muslim, just as we boast that Prophet Essa, Musa, Ibrahim and others were Muslims because they believe in a God and the accountability day.

    Islam is about Justice and when we deny some one the same rights as we have, then we cannot call it Justice. Our moral standing and emaan will be strong when we truly believe that Justice is not for our own kind, but for every human being, Muslim or not.

    We have to take a position and embrace every Muslim and not do the hair splitting. If you give the danda (stick) to orthodox Wahhabi, Shia, Sunni, Ismaili, Bohra, Ahmadiyya, Kurd or other group to lash out, they would declare every one to be a non-Muslim other than themselves and perhaps give each one of us at least one lash. Isn’t this the reason we have Islam where a rich or poor, alim (scholar) or jahil (ignorant) can stand in the same line in presence of God Almighty as equals? After all, if we die, each one of us will be buried on equal terms. Only Allah knows and he reserves the right to judge one’s Emaan, and one’s Niyyah and not any one else. This is our God given freedom.

    If we need to have the moral strength, we have to consider dropping the barriers for greater good. We have to work for it, we have to do the Jihaad within, we have to fight the "desire" to compel others to be like us, isn’t this Jihad a legitimate Jihaad?

    There is quite a lot of raw, civil and good expressions included in the comments sections http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2008/04/ahmadiyya-muslims-what-next.html.

    Jazak Allah Khair
    Mike Ghouse

    ReplyDelete
  27. Dear Mr.Ghouse
    I dont know about your religion, but you have touched my heart by writing this. Many friends have written about your article so i dont want to write more on it. Just want to say that you have described the real picture of Islam and the teaching of the Holy Prophet Muhammod PBUH. I hope and pray that Indonesia will learn a lesson from Pakistan and Afghanistan.

    ReplyDelete
  28. The state of oppression against minority groups

    Pandaya, Jakarta

    A government panel's recent demand that Ahmadiyah be banned because the sect's dogma runs against that of mainstream Islam is sending a chill down the spines of minorities in Indonesia, which is losing shine as a model of a tolerant, pluralistic country.

    The shocking petition by the Coordinating Board for Monitoring Mystical Beliefs (Bakor Pakem) is only the latest in a flurry of persecutions suffered by Ahmadiyah, a sect founded by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in 1889 in India and which today has between 200,000 and 500,000 followers in Indonesia, mainly on Java and Lombok islands.

    A proponent of nation building since 1925, Ahmadiyah enjoyed peaceful coexistence with other religious groups until 1980 when leadership of the conservative Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI) branded it "un-Islamic and heretical".

    MUI, which raised some eyebrows last year when one of its fatwas labeled pluralism haram (forbidden), escalated its assault in 1984 when it campaigned to repeal the legal status accorded to Ahmadiyah by the Indonesian government in 1953.

    In fact, Bakor Pakem, which consists of representatives from the state prosecutors' office, the police, the military, the State Intelligence Agency (BIN) and the Home and Religious Affairs ministries, has never shown sympathy with Ahmadiyah. In 2005, it banned books about the controversial sect.

    The 1980 MUI edict has been blamed for attacks by militant Muslims on Ahmadiyah followers and their property. In the latest incident, in December 2007, an Ahmadiyah community in Kuningan was ransacked. Eight mosques were closed by the local administration in favor of the "mainstream" Muslim attackers.

    On July 15, 2005, the Islamic Defenders Front (FPI) forcibly dispersed a gathering of 11,000 Ahmadiyah members at their Mubarak campus in Parung, near Bogor, and police apprehended 300 Ahmadiyah followers for questioning.

    Another major attack on Ahmadiyah occurred in 2002 on Lombok Island, West Nusa Tenggara. The attackers destroyed houses, mosques and shops belonging to Ahmadiyah. About 350 scared congregation members fled their homes as far away as Bali and they have lived miserable lives away from home until today.

    Cases of violence against Ahmadiyah have also happened in Jakarta and Cianjur, West Java. Media reports say that all the violence happened before the eyes of security officers, who did little to protect the victims.

    MUI, which was founded during the era of Soeharto dictatorship to represent Muslim interests, has dismissed any suggestions linking the violence with the edict that condemned Ahmadiyah and other Islamic sects as misguided.

    An Ahmadiyah leader was right when he said his congregation enjoyed freedom under both Sukarno and despotic Soeharto but, ironically, not throughout this age of reforms, particularly under the Yudhoyono regime.

    Ahmadiyah is not the only sect that MUI has branded heretical. A host of religious sect leaders have been imprisoned for their beliefs. Preacher Yusman Roy in Malang, East Java, was sentenced to two years in prison last year for promoting prayers in the Indonesian language instead of the regular Arabic. A Jakarta court sentenced Lia Aminuddin, leader of the Salamullah sect, to two years in jail. Self-proclaimed prophet Ahmad Mushaddeq, leader of the Al-Qiyadah Al-Islamiyah sect from Bogor, received four years in jail Wednesday for "blaspheming Islam".

    Despite all the political freedom ushered in following the fall of strongman Soeharto in 1998, the four subsequent regimes were desperately soft when it came to dealing with religious politics, and this weakness has been giving rise to religious fundamentalism.

    Soeharto, well-known as a shrewd political strategist, would resort to preemptive strike to crush his political opponents' apparent attempts to undermine his power. This heavy-handed tactic applied when dealing with religious groups opposed to state ideology Pancasila. His biggest mistake, though, was his inclination to use excessive force, as he did when dealing with the Warsidi sect in Lampung in 1989 and the Tanjung Priok Muslim protest in 1984.

    But after Soeharto's fall and the painful beginnings of the quest for democracy, his successors learned from his mistakes. As freedom of any sort became unstoppable, subsequent political leaders have hesitated to act firmly in enforcing the law, afraid to be accused of trampling human rights.

    The Yudhoyono administration has often demonstrated this reluctance to act swiftly and firmly against politicians that bend the law and on the omnipresent thuggery, especially when perpetrators act in the name of religion. Some regional politicians, for example, have exploited this weakness to introduce sharia-style bylaws and others counter it with Bible-based ordinances while Pancasila is still well in place.

    The Ahmadiyah affair is but the latest case in point of how the Yudhoyono administration will readily succumb to fundamentalists' pressure. In fact, the existence of state bodies like the one that monitors mystical beliefs is a mockery of democracy. The state controls citizens' spiritual life while the Constitution unambiguously guarantees the freedom of religion.

    Besides, Indonesia ratified the Declaration of Universal Human Rights in 1999 and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights in 2005. Both affirm the state's guarantee of religious freedom.

    In the case of Ahmadiyah, opponents argue that the state has to ban the sect because it goes against the Islam that most Muslims embrace. If this statistical logic becomes the accepted norm in state decision making, a unitary Indonesia will be digging its own grave as a pluralistic nation.

    Minorities, you are on your own. The state won't protect you.

    The author is a staff writer at The Jakarta Post.

    ReplyDelete
  29. This is about Ahmadiyyas and their defence being published as well as authored by you.

    You come across as an 'peacenik' who is not aware of the details of groups like Ahmadiyya. Mike, in their case,it is not mainstream muslims needing to be tolerant of some 'deviational beliefs'.Their agenda was and is different.

    The Ahmadiyya are a group initially set up by the British in India to act as a political opposition to the mainstream muslims' struggle for independence from the colonial yoke in the subcontinent.

    The Ahmadiyya literature is full of praise for the colonial rulers of India. One of its basic political tenets was that it was forbidden (haram) to take part in the independence struggle against the British in India or anywhere else!

    Not that they agreed to Gandhi's Satyagrah as a tool of political struggle. No, the Ahmadiyya were for the British rule in India period. Today,it is not their rule that the Ahmadiyya favour,it is their dominance in the Political,Military, Civilisational and Economic fields worldwide.

    This is a familiar situation down the centuries.Most deviationists are political opposition in another garb...something which is amply proved by history. Mainstream muslims simply want all such groups to identify themselves honestly...hence their demand that the Ahmadiyya call themselves by a name other than 'muslim'.

    Best Regards,
    Farid

    ReplyDelete
  30. Moderator – I am a just plain old Muslim who believes in the God given freedom. It is time we Muslims drop the bias against other Muslims. Our claim that Musa, Essa and Ibrahim were Muslims sounds very shallow, when we deny the Muslamaniyat to the Ahmadiyyas. We are commanded to verify before we judge people on social matters, here we are charging them that they don’t believe in Prophet Muhammad – they follow the same Shahadah as we do, check out www.Alislam.org . On the matters of faith, only Allah reserves the right to judge. Just because Muslims have not spoken out against this injustice to Ahmadiyyas, it does not mean it is the verified truth, it is not. There is another article written by Robert Salaam that is worth reading. I did not post it as a main item because, we have written enough about the topic.

    ReplyDelete
  31. AOA,
    Can someone tell me why do some muslims(claiming to be muslims) call themselves "Ahmadi Muslims". Why do they use "Ahmadi" to distinguish themselves from other muslims.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Ovais,

    Agree with you, no one should identify themselves as Shia, Sunni, Ahmadi, Wahhabi, Ismaili, Bohra, Khwarijis, Kurds etc… Unfortunately, you and I are equally guilty of surrendering to petty demands to know our heritage. This will not go away, but we can certainly try. I pledge today, Insha Allah, I will not be cajoled, compelled or persuaded to tag myself with a denomination, please feel free to do as well. It is a difficult road, but we have to take it. At least our own ID should be simply MUSLIM.

    ReplyDelete
  33. 1- Prophet Muhammad is "khatimmun-nabiyyen" the last LAW-BEARING prophet.

    He is not LAST prophet according to other Muslim belief also, they believe that Jesus (AS) will come again AFTER Holy Prophet (saw), so that makes Jesus (as) the last prophet. Both believe there is at least ONE prophet after Holy Prophet (saw), rest of the Muslims believe that Allah kept an Israelite prophet alive for 2000 years (against His own laws) for that purpose.

    2- Ahmadies believe that Jesus (as) has died a natural death and he is not descending from heavens. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed (as) of Qaidan is same Masih and Mahdi as prophesied by Holy Prophet (saw) himself, and in Ahadis Holy Prophet (saw) has himself named the coming Messiah a prophet. So Mirza Ghulam Ahmed (as) is subordinate prophet to Holy Prophet (saw) in accordance with Ahadis.

    Waslam
    Naseer Tahir
    www.alislam.org

    ReplyDelete
  34. Naseer,

    Agreement or disagreement with your statement is not the issue, the issue is, it is not a Muslim thing to deny others their Musalmaniyat.

    We humans can judge individuals on the social issues like; theft, lying, robbing, murders, cheating and illicit behavior.

    However, we cannot judge an individual's faith, that is upto God to judge and God only is the master of the day of judgment.

    Mike Ghouse

    ReplyDelete
  35. From Dr. Salaam Faraz
    Bakers Field Californian.

    Indonesians torch Muslim sect's mosque
    NINIEK KARMINI
    http://www.bakersfield.com/893/story/429366.html

    Hundreds of protesters chanting "Kill, kill" set fire Monday to an
    Indonesian mosque belonging to a Muslim sect they claim is heretical,
    police said.

    A policeman was wounded in the head when the crowd stoned the
    mosque in West Java province before setting it ablaze, said police
    spokesman Col. Dade Ahmad. Several suspects were taken in for
    questioning.

    The attack was the latest targeting the Ahmadiyah sect in
    Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation.

    Most mainstream Muslims consider Ahmadiyah heretical because it
    does not consider Muhammad to be the final prophet. The sect was founded
    at the end of the 19th century in Pakistan.

    Last week, a team of prosecutors, religious scholars and
    government officials said the sect "had deviated from Islamic
    principles" and recommended it be outlawed. There have been several acts
    of vandalism targeting Ahmadiyah since then.

    About 300 people torched the mosque and destroyed an Islamic
    school building inside the Ahmadiyah compound in Sukabumi town just
    after midnight. Many sect members have since fled the area, seeking
    refuge with friends and relatives.

    "We heard the attackers chanting 'Burn, burn' and 'Kill, kill,'"
    said Zaki Firdaus, one of the sect's members. "It was horrifying."

    Around 200 people living on the mosque's compound got away before
    the crowd arrived. The police were called, "but the attackers came
    faster," Firdaus said.

    Ahmadiyah followers have been persecuted for years, but last
    week's recommendation prompted an escalation, said sect spokesman
    Syamsir Ali. Four mosques have been destroyed since the April 16
    announcement.

    It was "like a poison, not a medicine for this nation," he said.
    "We don't know what will happen with us tomorrow."

    Indonesia is a secular country with a long history of religious
    tolerance. But in recent years a hard-line fringe has grown louder and
    the government - which relies on the support of Islamic parties in
    Parliament - has been accused of caving in to it.

    Ahmadiyah, believed to have 200,000 followers in Indonesia, has
    also faced persecution in other Muslim countries. Its followers insist
    it should be considered part of Islam.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Dr. Salman Zafar Shaikh - Ahmadiyya.
    - Bismillaah Walhamdulillaah WasSalaatu WasSalaam Ala Rasulillaah

    Praise be to Allaah (SWT) and Peace and Salutations on Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

    Dear Br. Mike Ghouse,

    Your article posted on http://www.iviews. com/and similar material posted on your websitehttp://www.mikeghou se.net/ is dis-informing, misleading and potentially dangerous.


    It lacks the basic understanding in Islam that Prophet Muhammad son of Abdallah of 7th century Arabia was the LAST & FINAL Prophet of Allaah SWT. ANY RELIGION WHICH BELIVES IN ANOTHER PROPHET AFTER HIM IS OUTSIDE OF ISLAM. This is common sense also, since a "new prophet" can pretty much change the entire religion!

    Thus it is simply a religious issue. The Ahmadiya believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani of 20th century India as being another Prophet. They also change many Islamic beliefs such as Jesus Christ PBUH being raised alive by Allah SWT. Instead they twist the Quranic Ayah about this and instead claim that Jesus PHUB died a natural death.

    Thus the Ahmadiya are simply NOT Muslim. Likewise the Bahais (who believe in Bahaullah as Prophet) and Farrakhan group (who believe in Elijah Muhammad as Prophet) are NOT Muslim, even though I like some things in Farrakhan group like their social service and discipline etc.

    Thus Pakistan or Indonesia etc. declaring Ahamdiyah as non-Muslim is correct. However we still need to demonstrate good behavior towards all human beings following the example of Prophet Muhammad SAW who was a Mercy to the Universe. We must not deny the legitimate rights of any group and should use the best of means to invite them to Truth. In this regards, I agree with many of your efforts Masha’Allaah. Prophet Muhammad SAW showed exemplary behavior towards and if we were to implement the“rights of neighbors” (Muslim or non-Muslim), then the situation would become much more positive insha’Allaah.

    Just to get a bit of my background,I too hail from India, graduated from IIT Delhi and later obtained a Ph.D. from Columbia Universty, New York. I work in New Jersey. I had also obtained the first rank in all of India in SCRA exam afterHigh School, Alhamdulillaah.

    In short, I recommend this articleand similar materialbe removed, since it is misleading and could cause the spread of wrong beliefs about Islam among Muslims or non-Muslims. If that were to happen,you would be responsible on Day of Judgment.

    May Allaah SWT help & guide all to Truth with Khayr. Aameen.

    Jazakum Allaahu Khayran. WasSalaam.
    Salman Zafar Shaikh, Ph.D.

    ReplyDelete
  37. To the following allegation of Dr. Slaman

    They had also discouraged Indians from fighting from independence from British Colonialists during the last century and hence were promoted by the British Imperialists who were Colonizing India at that time.

    This point also has been cleared many times before that Ahmadies were among very few Religious group which were with Qiad-e-Azam and participated whole heartedly in the independence movement, other included His Holiness Sir Agha and his Ismaili community and some ulema of Brelvi" school of thought.

    With exception of above groups ALL other religious parties, Jamat Islami, Majlis-e-Ahrar, Khaksar Tehrik, Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind etc etc ...all big names, were utterly against Pakistan and they were the one who were discouraging Muslims of India from gaining independance, as I mentioned before, recently very respected columnist Nazir Naji wrote on this topic in the Daily Jang.

    Ahmadiya contribution is recorded in numerous history books including the official biography of Qaid-e-Azam written by Syed Raees Jafri. Ahmadies were at the forefront of Independence movement, Qaid-e-Azam appointed Ch. Zafrullah khan to a number of key positions including the first foreign minister of Pakistan.
    This is a pity that people are lying through their teeth an accusing Ahmadies of being against Pakistan while they were them self calling it "Na-Pakistan, Kafirstan and "Musalmanoo ki Kafiraba Hakoomat"

    ReplyDelete
  38. As salaam wa alaikum,

    Dear Brothers & Sisters,

    I am a Muslim, trying to follow the Qur'an and the Sahih Hadiths. And I believe all those who stray away from the path of Islam (i.e. Way of life mentioned in the Qur'an and in the teachings of the Prophet (PBUH) through Sahih Hadiths), i.e. commit shirk by associating with Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala, and not believeing that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was the last messenger (the khatimun Nabiyyeen), are commiting shirk. We all know there is no forgiveness for committing shirk.

    We as Muslims, should save ourselves and others from committing shirk, and the best example of doing so is by following the practices of the Prophet and the Sahabas (Companions of the Prophets), in dealing with the situation.


    As Muslims, i.e., submitting your will to Allah (S.W.T), we should always strive to help the misguided/astray portion of the Humanity in returning to Islam through proper Da'wah. Education is the best solution to this problem. If, after the truth is presented to any person, and he doesn't accept it, then his account is with Allah (S.W.T.), as we have done ou duty of presenting the truth to him/her. But, this doesnt stop our duty here.
    The next step for us (and in a cyclic form), is for us to keep presenting the Truth to people, Propagate the "shirk" and the "truth" so that people unknowing do not commit shirk. We all are accountable for conveying the truth to others as long as the last breath is there in our lungs. Hidayat & Taufeeq are the Rehmaah of Allah (S.W.T.).

    May Allah guide all of us to the straigth path, to follow the teachings of the Qur'aan and Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) through the Sahih Hadith.

    Jazak Allah Khair,
    Zaffer Khan

    ReplyDelete
  39. Knowledge: About Conveying the Message

    Volume 001 :: Book 003 (Knowledge) :: Hadith 071

    Narated By Muawiya :

    I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If Allah wants to do good to a person, He makes him comprehend the religion. I am just a distributor, but the grant is from Allah. (And remember) that this nation (true Muslims) will keep on following Allah's teachings strictly and they will not be harmed by any one going on a different path till Allah's order (Day of Judgment) is established."

    ReplyDelete
  40. “Believing in the finality of Prophethood of Muhammad is the essential requirement of claiming to be a Muslim”.

    I have a slightly different take on the above.

    The acceptance of the ‘finality of the prophet hood’ gives a special status to the person Muhammad, who it is said had not brought a message different to previous prophets, named and un-named in Quran. And also that he was of the species of mankind like you and I and therefore all previous prophets too.

    Therefore no status is applicable to him other than that of being a prophet, recipient of inspirations. Otherwise, this special status, to my understanding goes against the tolerance of all other faiths and religions; that is to say, pluralism.

    Muhammad being the seal, I maintain that, it was the drying out of divine messages when he was standing in line at the tap to receive ' wisdom'. This was so because God in his wisdom had decided that humanity (Alas, not yet mankind!) had reached a state of maturity where it has now to evolve independently, based on the principles enumerated in the completed Dean --the code.

    Mirza Gulam Ahmed had the right to agree or disagree with the Code given therein, but by claiming prophet hood for himself he abrogated his right to join the community of Muslims (Ummah).

    The Lahorys', I understand reject his claim to Prophet hood and therefore call him mujaddid.

    I have stated often that any adjective added in order to brand Islam( an Arabic word, for Muhammad was an Arab. It would have been a Punjabi word if he was borne there!), can not be accepted according to that code. Tolerated, protected and even loved in the brotherhood of mankind, if Not causing dissention (fitna) and acrimony -yes indeed!

    ReplyDelete
  41. To the following allegation of Dr. Slaman
    They had also discouraged Indians from fighting from independence from British Colonialists during the last century and hence were promoted by the British Imperialists who were Colonizing India at that time.

    This point also has been cleared many times before that Ahmadies were among very few Religious group which were with Qiad-e-Azam and participated whole heartedly in the independence movement, other included His Holiness Sir Agha and his Ismaili community and some ulema of Brelvi" school of thought.
    With exception of above groups ALL other religious parties, Jamat Islami, Majlis-e-Ahrar, Khaksar Tehrik, Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind etc etc ...all big names, were utterly against Pakistan and they were the one who were discouraging Muslims of India from gaining independence, as I mentioned before, recently very respected columnist Nazir Naji wrote on this topic in the Daily Jang.

    Ahmadiya contribution is recorded in numerous history books including the official biography of Qaid-e-Azam written by Syed Raees Jafri. Ahmadies were at the forefront of Independence movement, Qaid-e-Azam appointed Ch. Zafrullah khan to a number of key positions including the first foreign minister of Pakistan.
    This is a pity that people are lying through their teeth an accusing Ahmadies of being against Pakistan while they were them self calling it "Na-Pakistan, Kafirstan and "Musalmanoo ki Kafiraba Hakoomat"

    ReplyDelete
  42. Br Mike
    Assalamalaikum,

    Now when the Ahmadiyya representative has himself stated their position that they do not accept Prophet Muhammad as the final prophet, you should ask yourself: Are they Muslims? You argue that it is not for Muslims to judge anybody's musalmaniyyat. Then who will judge, Mike? Non-Muslims? It is of course for the experts of Islam to judge if a certain idea or ideology falls within the acceptable limits. If tomorrow someone says that Quran is not the Book of God and it was in fact authored by Muhammad and yet claims himself to be a Muslim, would you again say it is not for Muslims to judge his musalmaniyyat? Br Mike, the position of Ahmadiyya is clear. They accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Prophet of Islam, and to adjust this, deny finality of Prophethood to Muhammad and ascension and second advent of Jesus. As far as the coming back of Jesus is concerned, he will come as the follower of Islam and not as Prophet.

    Personally, I have had several Ahmadi friends. They even tried to suck me in their organisation saying: A man like you will be sitting in our London Office the next day you join us. There is no doubt that they have developed a very good welfare organisation. But that does not mitigate or dilute their gumrahi.

    Even otherwise, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad abysmally failed to do what a Prophet, if at all he was, should have done. He should have effectively invited the whole world to Islam; should have been able to unite the whole Muslim Ummah; should have had told who is wrong among Shias and Sunnis and should have given more clear interpretation of Quranic verses related to creation of the universe and man. Instead he remained a Sunni and followed Hanafiyyat; and ironically Sunnis hanafis totally rejected him.

    Javed Jamil

    ReplyDelete
  43. RESPONSE TO JAVED JAMIL

    Most of us have consistently attempted to get the people not to attach the word terrorism to Islam, as it is not the civil language. Like wise, the Ahmadiyya’s prefer to be called as Ahmadiyya and I have replaced all the words that started with Q.

    In the previous posting a clarification was made that we have the right to judge one's deviant social behavior as to theft, fornication, cheating etc, where as one's faith, an inner matter will be judged by God on the Day of Judgment.

    Javed, I understand and respect your position and I have the same problem as well. I believe that Prophet Muhammad was the last prophet. Ahmadiyya interpretation works for them, as they believe in it. Neither Shia, Sunni, Ahmadi, Wahhabi have to accept each other’s point of view, we do differ on different issues. Each set has its own peculiarities that the others do not share, that is given, and we have to live with it, as we cannot compel any one to believe what he or she does not.

    The choices are: i) compel them to change their belief ii) deny them their right to believe in Islam in their own way iii) and deny them the right to call themselves Muslims. This assumes that we don't need to consult and that when consulted and if the majority agrees to impose all the three choices, we have to go by the majority. None of this can be good for all times.

    What if the whole nation of Indonesia becomes Ahmadiyya or powerful, can they reverse the above choices made by Sunni Muslims? Would that be legitimate? The Criminal Ferdinand has done that, Criminal Hitler has done that and the world stood by doing nothing. Much of this was in my original post.

    You, I and most Muslims believe that Islam is for all times, it is big enough to accommodate the whole universe without conflicts and without compelling others to be subservient, and letting every one who he or she is remain who they want to be. God's model of diversity is impeccable with the matter, the Sun, the planets, and the whole universe obeys God, meaning they do what they were created for. He wants us to know each other and the best among us is the one who is best in conduct, Allah is aware.

    Mohammed Irtaza quotes Qur'aan below “those who take heed and lead a righteous life, will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.”

    By the way Javed, no one has offered me anything... thanks God, like you I will refuse any one to corrupt me.

    I am grateful to almighty that I am not obligated to any one but God. I do not fear any one but God. Thanks God I do not intend to please some at the cost of pleasing the creator. Speak the truth as I know and understand. Thanks God again, no Imam, no Muslim scholar, No Muslim has ever pushed me to compromise, we debate, we argue, but no one has ever compelled me. The Public should know that Muslims debate and discuss issues, and they agree and disagree. They are as democratic as anyone can get. For every three Muslims, we can find five opinions.

    My sincere request to my Muslim brothers and sisters is to resist the temptations to deny Ahmadiyya to call themselves Muslims. In the long haul, it is the good thing do for Muslims and all.

    ReplyDelete
  44. POSTED FOR MANZURUL HAQUE BY MIKE
    --------------------------------
    Dear Manzoor,

    I did not read your comment and I may have missed a few... for the last three weeks, I am with my wife who has a few more days left to live. I have not kept up with emails regularly. Please read about my turmoil at:

    http://mikeghouseforamerica.blogspot.com/2008/05/gods-grace-for-najma-ghouse.html
    --------------------------------
    Dear Mr. Ghouse,
    I had sent the under-mentioned small piece as my comments which were somehow not published.. Was there any reason for it or it was a mere default? Don't you find, my views are quite accommodating? In fact I consider my self quite modern, and perhaps my strong tendency is to be just and reasonable.

    Manzurul Haque
    Patna, India

    ***********************

    About Ahmadiyyas, I have read the submission of Mr.Din Muhammad Shahed. I think the point of 'Khatam an Nabiyyen' should be understood more pragmatically. A religious community cannot accommodate two prophets, as per the religious tradition of what is called Abrahamic religions. Even if Quran had left the option of 101 more prophets to come, we Muslims would have followed the religion of Islam as taught by Prophet Muhammad. Can anyone have issues with this? So the question of Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad being whatever, is not of relevance to the Muslims. If he is also a follower of Prophet Muhammad and Islam as propounded by the Prophet, then why is this debate? But if his followers want for him the status of a Messenger, then let them have a separate religion, distinct from Islam.
    --Manzurul Haque, manhaq@yahoo.com

    ReplyDelete
  45. Thanks Mike for undrstanding Islam in its true spirit! Thanks for standing for justice and peace, the fundamental attributes of an Islamic society.

    Farzana wrote:

    From a strictly Quranic and theological perspective, there are three conditions a person needs to fulfill to qualify as a Muslim. These are belief in One God, the hereafter and the prophetic witness of Mohammad (not necessarily as the last messenger). "la Ilaha Illaah Mohamdur rasoonl ullah' doe not include that condition.
    Ahmadiya therefore qualify on all counts. You have no business disqualifying them on a difference of opinion based on a matter that is relatively unimportant.


    I am an Ahmadi Muslim. Can anyone prove from either the Quran or Sunnah that I am NOT a muslim, when i hold the artciles of faith and pillars of islam dear?

    If you cannot, then why so much dissonance?

    ReplyDelete
  46. http://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/
    'to be or not to be' ...
    'Ahmadiyya Muslims', That's It !!

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  47. AOA everyone
    First of all, MR Ghouse I do understand your goodwill about all the Muslims. And it seems that you do possess good knowledge of Islam. But you have not provided any answers to Mr. Alvi's arguement. Mr Alvi is right there is a lot more about Ahmadies. I am not agianst them. However, I have a very close realtionship with them which made me to realise that they are very rigid too and have very little wish to be united with non Ahmidies. And the issue of IJHMA should not be just ignored.You might have had a good personal experience with them but perosnal feeling cannot be imposed using the Islam sake. However, I do agree that we should be tolarant to everyone and should live peacefully. However, this is not up to us to decide who is Muslim and who is not. We should look after our Dean first.
    God Bless you all
    Mrs Bilal

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  48. @Mrs Bilal

    With reference to your opinion "And the issue of IJHMA should not be just ignored.", as per my information there is no such IJHMA. Ahmadis has been declared as Non Muslims by the National Assembly of Pakistan. In many other Muslim countries they are still counted as Muslims.

    Secondly, if we assume that "However, this is not up to us to decide who is Muslim and who is not", I beleive no Muslim will be left as Muslim since there are so many Fatwas ( Every sect has declared other Non Muslim ). May be you also won't be left as Muslim. In my opinion it is not we who may decide and Allah never gave us the license to declare others Non Muslims.

    Mian Taimoor

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  49. Dear All
    there are some matters are at the level of our religous scholars we should not discuss to much and our country is not free we should think about pakistan we should work for pk when we will be free every one will be clear this is the night and all are wondaring, when we will free insha Allah Every one will be open like every sand piece is clear in light
    we should think about ............ok
    leave them there are 1000 like them ok

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  50. I was born to parents who are members of Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat. I always thought I was a Muslim but after reading all this it looks like some people don't think I am one.

    Throughout my life I have tried my best to follow all requirements of Islam (from Holy Quran, Hadith, and Sunnah). What should I do to be accepted?

    Kind Regards,
    Mrs. S

    Can I recite Shahada? La ilaha illallah, Muhammad ur Rasulullah". Am I a Muslim now? Or do I have to go and kill an Ahmadi child or burn their property? Is that what the Holy Prophet Muhammad would do?

    I know someone who steals, drinks, and has committed adultery but everyone considers him a Muslim. If that were Islam then I would rather be a non-Muslim :(

    Kind Regards

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  51. salam aleikom i am arabic Agerian i accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the Prophet of Allah.
    he is the Mahdi of Muslim.
    may Allah bless all people
    thantk for you article
    alislam.org

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  52. There follow some of the ahaadeeth that have been narrated concerning the Seal of Prophethood:

    1 – Muslim (2344) narrated that Jaabir ibn Samurah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “I saw the Seal by his shoulder, like a pigeon’s egg, resembling his body” i.e., its colour was like the rest of his body.

    2 – Muslim (2346) also narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Sarjis said: “I saw the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and I ate bread and meat with him (or he said, thareed – a meat dish)… then I went behind him and I looked at the Seal of Prophethood between his shoulders, near the top of his left shoulder, the shape of a hand with the fingers together (but smaller in size, the size of a pigeon’s egg), with moles on it.”

    See Sharh Muslim by al-Nawawi.

    3 – al-Tirmidhi narrated in al-Shamaa’il that Abu Zayd ‘Amr ibn Akhtab al-Ansaari said: “I touched his back, and my fingers touched the Seal.” He was asked, “What is the Seal?” He said, “A number of hairs growing together.”

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  53. If the text said that the Messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the Seal of the Messengers, that would not suggest that there would be no Prophet after him, because it would be possible for there to be a Prophet who was not a Messenger.

    But, the text states that the Messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the Seal of the Prophets and that there will be no Prophet after him and this means that there can be no Prophet after him and no Messenger after him.

    Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

    “but he is the Messenger of Allaah and the last (end) of the Prophets” [al-Ahzaab 33:40]. This verse states that there will be no Prophet after him, and if there will be no Prophet after him, then there can be no Messenger after him either, because the status of Messenger is higher than the status of Prophet; a Messenger is also a Prophet but the converse is not necessarily the case.

    Tafseer Ibn Katheer (3/645).

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  54. Whoever profess kalima is muslim.We are not prophet to call any body non muslim.I beleive that ahamdis are violating the finality of prophethood like shia.Shia believe that their imam are innocent like prophet,imam have miracles,imam get revelation etc (Read thair most authentic book of hadith kafi.Hazrat Shah wali Allah has mentioned in his famous book Ilfooz i kabeer that shia dont believe on finality of prophethood.Ahmadi dont call their imam law bearing prophet.They call mirza ji shadow or image of prophet.What is the difference between shia and ahmadis? Shia have been part of muslim community then why ahmadis cant be the part of muslim community.
    I have spent some time with top pakistai muftis and i know that they treat shia same like ahmadis.
    Saudi Top scholar treat shia same like ahmadis.
    Please read a book shia wal sunna by yousaf ludhianvi and you will get to know the ulma point of view.yousaf ludhanvi was the teacher of Mulana Tariq jameel Tablighi alim.
    Mostly people here have lack of islamic knowledge.
    Allah show us the right path Amen

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  55. The relation between religion and culture is the central idea in both of Eliot’s books on the subject, too. At the beginning of Notes towards the Definition of Culture, for instance, he says, “The first important assertion is that no culture has appeared or developed except together with a religion . More Detail : http://www.mastervoodoospells.com/

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  56. It has been a pleasure reading this article, the pleasure of seeing a fundamental transformation in the opinion of some of our Muslim brothers.

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