The following exchange is about secular Muslims; relevant updates will be added right below this response...
Just as Qur'aan is mis-translated and mis-interpreted by a few, every piece of literature is fraught with the same problem.
A secular Muslim is broadly outlines a Muslim, who believes that in the public square, where every faith is practiced, wearing neon-signs to signify separation between people by use of religion is not needed. Secular Muslims silently practice their faith of being caring and exemplary beings... and perhaps attract others to know about them rather than become a religious barricade.
Religion connects one with the divine and does not and should not divide people. Dr. Iqbal had said.." mazhab nahin sikhata, aapas my bair rakhna" Religion does not teach one to live in one's own shell. Indeed, Islam is universal, all encompassing and all embracing. It is not a cocoon. The word Secular, pluralistic Muslim denotes that idea.
Qur'aan, Surah 49:13: "O mankind! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware."
To be a Muslim is to be a peacemaker, one who constantly seeks to mitigate conflicts and nurtures goodwill for peaceful co-existence. God wants us to live in peace and harmony with his creation; life and mater. Indeed, that is the purpose of religion, any religion. Dr. Bandukwala's says this well below in his comment.
Mike Ghouse
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More comments in the comment section below
AA,
Hasni,
May I make a small enhancement to your beautiful statement" Our beloved prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lifted pagans from jahiliya and gave great religion (Islam) to his people, which appreciates life's spiritual values and interpretation of life,it's origin,it's purpose,and its destiny."
Let's enhance it to read "" Our beloved prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lifted unrighteous people from jahiliya and gave great religion (Islam) to his people, which appreciates life's spiritual values and interpretation of life,it's origin,it's purpose,and its destiny.""
Islam is about ultimately creating a just society, justice is the core of Islam. Please ponder about the usage of the word Pagan in the above sentence, it implies Pagans are bad people, no group of people ever are bad, individuals are. And it simply defies one of the most "give respect and receive respect" Sura's of Qur'aan. Read the line, it does not condemn or call other belief as inferior, it puts oneself on par with the other.
109:1 SAY: "O you who deny the truth!
109:2 "I do not worship that which you worship,
109:3 and neither do you worship that which I worship!
109:4 "And I will not worship ~hat which you have [ever] worshipped,
109:5 and neither will you [ever] worship that which I worship.
109:6 Unto you, your moral law, and unto me, mine !"
Mike Ghouse
In a message dated 6/18/2008 4:31:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time, hasniessa@yahoo.com writes:
You are so right, brother Mike Ghouse,it's the individual, not his religion, who discredits it by his irreligious behavior.We just wonder, if men are so wicked with religion,what would they be without them.It is only religion, the great bond of love and duty to God,that makes any existence valuable or even tolerable.Our beloved prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lifted pagans from jahiliya and gave great religion (Islam) to his people, which appreciates life's spiritual values and interpretation of life,it's origin,it's purpose,and its destiny.It's hard then to understand why some of our own muslim brothers despise Islam when they know it's not religion but few religiously misinformed radicals who are trying to hijack Islam and use violence and killing innocent people for their own political end.
This brings us to the question of secularism.Another word for secularism is 'humanist', without being religious fundamentalist.Secularism is more about cultural and ideological diversity than it is about religion.As a legal concept, secularism means equality before the law, and no distinction between one citizen and another as far as the application of laws is concerned.It also means equality of opportunity and a refusal to classify citizens into first class citizens and second class citizens.A man with a secular outlook looks upon all persons as human beings,equally estimable or precious not only in the eye of the law, but in the eye of God.You do not think of a man as a Hindu,a Muslim or a Christian,but merely as human being.You are not conscious of the religion he professes.Secularism is
written into India's constitution in indelible lines.Religion should never be allowed to intrude into public affairs.
We must live and let live with all mankind, regardless of class and creed.We must recognize the infinite possibilities of human fallibility.Believe it or not, so many dogmas,once considered to be unshakable,have been thrown on the scrap-heap.Standards have changed from age to age and time to time.
If we truly go back in history, Fatimids enjoyed the best of arts,science and astronomy under both religious and secular studies at Al-Azhar University in Egypt.During Fatimid period, Al-Azhar was an essential part of the intellectual life.Al Azhar was the most secular university at the time.Unfortunately, radical religiosity, usually called 'fundamentalism' has erupted lately,which seem to be an intensely political form of faith that has caused grave danger to world and civic peace.Karen Armstrong writes in one of her books," Islam has become impotent before the West and it's triumphant secularism." ...
- Men who fight about religion have no religion to fight about.Since they do in the name of religion the thing which religion itself forbids.
A good religion is an attitude toward some Supreme Power other than self which results in progressive realization of truth,goodness and beauty in life.This is a definition which holds for all the great religions of the world, regardless of their creeds,historical background,civilization, theologies or philosophies.
Hasni Essa
Peace and Pluralism
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From: Mohammad Asghar
[Religion connects one with the divine and does not and should not divide people]
I wished it were true, but it is not. Please see around yourself and what you see?
Religions have divided people and created animosity and hatred among them. This is true in respect of all religions, but Islam bears greater responsibility for it, as it is the latest religion.
Instead of uniting people, it has created many more problems that are non-existent in other religions. For example, Islam asks its followers to kill the Pagans and those who do not believe in it.
This does not mean that other religions are free from violence - far from it, but what was expected from Islam was the preaching of peace and harmony among the people of all beliefs. Islam has failed and hence the reputation it has earned for itself!
In short, all religions are bad and they are not good for mankind. They should have no place in our lives.
Mohammad Asghar
Moderator::
Dear Mohammad, look at every issue of the world, it is not the religion, it is always the individual. Be it 9/11, WWII or Invasion of Iraq, there was, and is an individual who is solely responsible for the crimes, he was the driving force.
Religion is never the problem, it is the individual. Shame on all of us to blame the religion for the acts of individuals. Also, justice can be served on individual and not the religion, blaming religion has not produced justice.
You write, " Islam asks its followers to kill the Pagans and those who do not believe in it." Please read the Qur'aan, it does not say that. It talks about those individual pagans, Christians or Jews who were aggressively harassing the Muslims. Never in the book it says to kill all Pagans, Jews or Christians as it has been used as a propaganda material against Muslims. It was the specific individuals. God and Qur'aan is about Justice to all humans on an equal footing, if not, it would not be justice, would it? Finding the truth is one's own responsibility.
Mike Ghouse
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In a message dated 6/17/2008 10:07:44 A.M. Central Daylight Time, bintwaleed@xxx writes:
“Secular Muslim” is an oxymoron term. These two words are complete antithesis to each other not only in content and meaning but they also inevitably bring forth totally different results.
Anyone claiming to be a secular Muslim is apparently ignorant of the meaning and implication of words “secular” and “Muslim”.
Bint Waleed
___________________________________
--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Farzana Hassan
I am a secular Muslim and do nothing of what you accuse secular Muslims of.
Secular Muslims are the most decent and moral people who are simply governed by a secular ideology which promotes pluralism in upholding universal human rights. That has nothing to do with the criminal activity you attribute to them.
Farzana.
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----- Original Message ----
ztminhas@xxxxxx.
Subject: "Secular" Muslims..
(Sentence Deleted by Moderator xxxxx) secular muslims are the source of most the problems. Secular "muslims" eat the money that is supposed to go to zakat, not real muslims, secular "muslims" are the ones who drink and contribute to alcoholic problems. Secular "muslims" are involved in the drug trade. Secular "muslims" are the ones that promise poor laborers their wages and give nothing. Secular "muslims" are the ones that are involved in trafficking of women and children. Secular "muslims"... could keep on going. No practicing muslim, one who believes in Allah's laws will ever do the above. Once the above or anything like that is done, that so-called "muslim" becomes "secular"
Z T
----- Original Message ----
ASA
Dont know about your argument .but secularism should not go to the point of banning islamic culture and introducing things against the islamic culture..like in turkey theyve banned the scarf.(because of their secular principles). ........although it is an order of the Prophet(PBUH) to wear it.
___________________________________
GeoIslam@xxxxxx
From: drbandukwala@ xxxxx
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:05:55 +0530
"Secular" Muslims..
This sarcastic note tries to make fun of secular Muslims. Janab Yusuf Khan should know that if there is a solution to the Muslim problem world wide, Inshallah it will be due to the role of secular Muslims. Do not use your pen to strike others, without understanding larger issues. You maybe harming the community far more.
J.S.bandukwala
AA,
ReplyDeleteHasni,
May I make a small enhancement to your beautiful statement" Our beloved prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lifted pagans from jahiliya and gave great religion (Islam) to his people, which appreciates life's spiritual values and interpretation of life,it's origin,it's purpose,and its destiny."
Let's enhance it to read "" Our beloved prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lifted unrighteous people from jahiliya and gave great religion (Islam) to his people, which appreciates life's spiritual values and interpretation of life,it's origin,it's purpose,and its destiny.""
Islam is about ultimately creating a just society, justice is the core of Islam. Please ponder about the usage of the word Pagan in the above sentence, it implies Pagans are bad people, no group of people ever are bad, individuals are. And it simply defies one of the most "give respect and receive respect" Sura's of Qur'aan. Read the line, it does not condemn or call other belief as inferior, it puts oneself on par with the other.
109:1 SAY: "O you who deny the truth!
109:2 "I do not worship that which you worship,
109:3 and neither do you worship that which I worship!
109:4 "And I will not worship ~hat which you have [ever] worshipped,
109:5 and neither will you [ever] worship that which I worship.
109:6 Unto you, your moral law, and unto me, mine !"
Mike Ghouse
In a message dated 6/18/2008 4:31:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time, hasniessa@yahoo.com writes:
You are so right, brother Mike Ghouse,it's the individual, not his religion, who discredits it by his irreligious behavior.We just wonder, if men are so wicked with religion,what would they be without them.It is only religion, the great bond of love and duty to God,that makes any existence valuable or even tolerable.Our beloved prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lifted pagans from jahiliya and gave great religion (Islam) to his people, which appreciates life's spiritual values and interpretation of life,it's origin,it's purpose,and its destiny.It's hard then to understand why some of our own muslim brothers despise Islam when they know it's not religion but few religiously misinformed radicals who are trying to hijack Islam and use violence and killing innocent people for their own political end.
This brings us to the question of secularism.Another word for secularism is 'humanist', without being religious fundamentalist.Secularism is more about cultural and ideological diversity than it is about religion.As a legal concept, secularism means equality before the law, and no distinction between one citizen and another as far as the application of laws is concerned.It also means equality of opportunity and a refusal to classify citizens into first class citizens and second class citizens.A man with a secular outlook looks upon all persons as human beings,equally estimable or precious not only in the eye of the law, but in the eye of God.You do not think of a man as a Hindu,a Muslim or a Christian,but merely as human being.You are not conscious of the religion he professes.Secularism is
written into India's constitution in indelible lines.Religion should never be allowed to intrude into public affairs.
We must live and let live with all mankind, regardless of class and creed.We must recognize the infinite possibilities of human fallibility.Believe it or not, so many dogmas,once considered to be unshakable,have been thrown on the scrap-heap.Standards have changed from age to age and time to time.
If we truly go back in history, Fatimids enjoyed the best of arts,science and astronomy under both religious and secular studies at Al-Azhar University in Egypt.During Fatimid period, Al-Azhar was an essential part of the intellectual life.Al Azhar was the most secular university at the time.Unfortunately, radical religiosity, usually called 'fundamentalism' has erupted lately,which seem to be an intensely political form of faith that has caused grave danger to world and civic peace.Karen Armstrong writes in one of her books," Islam has become impotent before the West and it's triumphant secularism." ...
- Men who fight about religion have no religion to fight about.Since they do in the name of religion the thing which religion itself forbids.
A good religion is an attitude toward some Supreme Power other than self which results in progressive realization of truth,goodness and beauty in life.This is a definition which holds for all the great religions of the world, regardless of their creeds,historical background,civilization, theologies or philosophies.
Hasni Essa
Peace and Pluralism
Mike says: “it (Quran) does not condemn or call other belief as inferior, it puts oneself on par with the other.”
ReplyDeleteIt seems devoid of intelligence and knowledge here. Quran and the teachings of the Holy Prophet make it unambiguously clear that Islam is the only acceptable religion. All other religion will be rejected. Then how could other religions be at par with Islam!! Think about it.
I suggest Mike make an impartial reading of Quran with the help of explanation given by authentic scholars.
“...The only religion in the sight of God is Islam...” (3:19)
“Abraham was not a Jew nor Christian; but an upright Muslim.” (3:67)
“If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter, he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (their selves in the Hellfire).” (3:85)
…. And there are many more similar verses.
Bint Waleed
The secularists quote the quran when and where it fits them, otherwise they will quote the declaration of human rights :-). Hasni, I believe knows what is the definition of secularism, but he gives it his own refashioning. He refers to secularism being all equal before the law. He is full of it. I have said it before, I will say it again, it is the secularists that are the main problem with the muslims. Those who want to be secular and muslims in the end don't know what is secularism, and they don't know what it is to be a muslim.
ReplyDeleteZ T
ZT Minhas and Bint Waleed,
ReplyDeleteYour engagement is appreciated.
The world has been a better place because of the open mindedness of people who believed in their own faith, but wisely chose not to impose their's on others. It is their secular credentials, as Hasni has defined eloquently with the same confidence as one of you have called Abraham a Muslim, a term that came into existence during the times of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Both sets of opinions are valuable.
Have you ever thought of the Madinah Pact initiated and co-signed by the Prophet with Jews, Christians and others? He did not insist that Christians, Jews and others be governed by Islamic principles, did he? Secularism is giving respectable space to others, and not sticking one's version of pious living in every one's face.
If it were not for secularism of Americans, none of us would have made it to this nation or Europe or elsewhere. If it were not for the battle Jews took on to keep out the limited version of God-worship in schools, none of us would have dreamt of getting religious schools for our kids, nor built Mosques and other places of worship. If Spanish, Iranians, Abyssinians and Indians were not secular, Islam would not have gained access in any one of those places.
It is because of the secular Muslims who respected other people's way of worshipping the God in those nations, they were able to connect with the others and bring on board millions into the fold of Islamic way of living.
Now to be mindful - 1/10th of 1% (imaginary number - that is open to challenge) of Secular Muslim, devout Muslims, Pluralistic Muslims, fanatic Muslims, regular Muslims, Jihadi Muslims, Momin Muslims or any other classification .... you will find them to be extremists. The rest of 99-9/10th are good moderate beings.
Jazak Allah Khair
Mike Ghouse
www.WorldMuslimCongress.com
Salaam Mike, all
ReplyDeletePURE following of the Torah and TRUE first-Century Christianity are in fact submission to our Creator, ie: Islam. This is made clear in Surah Al Maidah.
The first group is only evidenced today by the "Torah True Jews" who - not coincidentally - oppose the formation of Israel; the second still finds members today in the Oxford Groups who - again not coincidentally - were the spiritual impetus for the group Alcoholic Anonymous eighty years ago.
It is never a coincidence when correct belief leads to correct actions.
If we look at INDIVIDUAL beliefs and practices among some who wear the LABELS of Jew or Christians we find many actual Muslims.
If we look at INDIVIDUAL beliefs and practices among some who wear the LABEL of Muslim we find many actual idolaters and atheists.
Gregory Waleed Kavalec
-------------------------
Start by doing what's necessary,
then do what's possible,
and suddenly you are doing the impossible.
-- Saint Francis of Assisi
If Karen Armstrong suggests that "regardless of their creeds,historical background, civilization, theologies or philosophies, ... all religions... result in progressive realization of truth," then it would imply that seeking of truth is an inherent human characteristic, and as such one does not need any guidance from a deity through a sooth sayer, cult-leader or a prophet.
ReplyDeleteHowever, no one so far has been able to define the truth. Is it what the scriptures define or what the science observes in repeatable data? As the two are diametrically opposed to each other, only one of them can be the "absolute truth," and the other is just a blind alley going nowhere.
Akhtar Ali Khan
Actually, Khan sahib, it's "absolute truth" we all are
ReplyDeleteseeking.And only absolute truth is, Allah, for Muslims.
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) found the truth and gave it to Muslims.
Unfortunately, some of us
Muslims seem to be lost and still searching for the truth.If you have found the truth yourself, we all would be interested to know what's your definition of truth would be.
Hasni,
ReplyDeleteIndeed, if some one knows the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, we will still be not satisfied, that is the nature of humans – as Islam some times is referred to as din of fitrat – natural instincts.
The defining moment in my life has been one sentence from Bhagvad Gita “finding the truth is one’s own responsibility”. A very powerful statement. This is applicable to religion, politics, science or any other aspect of life. Indeed, in one of the hadiths, Prophet tells one to verify before conclusions are drawn. Finding the truth keeps one free from bondage of hate, anger, Jealousy and sentiments from that. Mahatma Gandhi put a cap stone “truth is liberating”.
Truth allows one to be free from bondages, what is the truth? It is so many things to so many people, yet the commonality of that truth is – freedom, salvation, Mukti, Nijaat, Moksha or Nirvana. Truth is a process and not a final product, every human will go through that and experiences it.
Truth is beyond dispute such as;
Our existence is caused by a Causer - Atheist have no problems with it, the difference is semantic and not real one and that qualifies to be a truth. Each group names it differently for the same idea.
Akhtar Khan has a valid point – indeed, if we are individually capable of achieving that elusive peace for ourselves (free from conflicts, free from anxiety…..) we can do it. Religion simply tools the process.
Indeed each one of us is inclined to know the why, what, when of what we do, the search is found in reflections.
Science makes the truth easy – Mt. Everest is real, that is the truth. Cancerous cells multiply and spread over and harm body functions and that is the truth. When some one passes away, the crying is real, that is the truth and Mr. Spock may have to explore to understand this emotion. Science is not there to prove anyone wrong; it is a process of unearthing reason and logic for things that we can comprehend.
Again, truth is a process and not a final product, every human will go through that and experiences it.
Mike Ghouse
www.WorldMuslimCongress.com
I miss my friend Firoze Sheikh. He, along with his family vanished in 1987. I remember him clearly. A student of St Xavier’s college in Bombay, he used to come to K.C. College to meet his friends. I was in H.R. College then. We became friends at the tea stall outside my college.
ReplyDeleteImran Khan’s team was visiting India. I was shopping with my father in Santa Cruz market when the shopkeepers of Hasnabad Lane suddenly became ecstatic. Pakistan had defeated India in the first ODI. Suddenly there were young boys of my age out on the streets busy lighting firecrackers. A table was set up and sharbat was prepared and served to people passing by. “Pakistan jeet gaya”, is what the person at the table was saying, “Sharbat leejiye”. These Muslims were Indians. I could not understand why they were celebrating Pakistan’s victory over India.
The following day, Firoze did not come to meet us. I got to know from his cousin Jameel that Firoze had beaten up some Muslim boys in his locality (Mahim) because they were celebrating Pakistan’s win over India and there was trouble in his neighbourhood because of that. Our term in college was coming to an end. I sent a message to Firoze to meet me before the holidays began. On our last day of college Firoze turned up to meet us. He looked disturbed. His community and neighbours in Mahim had boycotted his family to the extent that the maulvi had put up a notice outside the mosque that Firoze and his family would not be allowed to pray there because he had harmed a Muslim. His parents had stood by him and they decided to leave the locality and settle somewhere else. Firoze had come to say goodbye to us. He told us he would either shift to Thane area and stay there on rent, or probably move to Lucknow, where his family actually came from.
That was the last time I saw him. He never called any of us after that. I was very puzzled about him being boycotted by his community.
After the holidays, the new term in college began. My timings changed. I was attending morning lectures. After that I would study in the library or hang around with my friends for a couple of hours, then return home. On my way back I would get off at Bandra station and wait for bus no.222 which went to Yari road. That was my favourite bus as it started at the depot and I always found a place to sit. On one such afternoon I was waiting for the bus. There were a few people with me in the queue. Suddenly, the person to my right turned to me and asked in hindi “Sunn rahey ho? Kya bol raha hai yeh?”. I was taken aback. What was he talking about? I looked at this man closely. His head was shaven. He sported a mehndi coloured beard but had shaved off his moustache. The loud speaker was blaring away. The maulvi, at the top of his voice was preaching Islam to his community. He was saying, “If a Muslim insults a Muslim, Allah will never forgive him. If a Muslim harms a Muslim, Allah will send him to hell…..”. The gentleman next to me asked “If a Muslim offends a Muslim, Allah will punish him, but if a Muslim harms a non-Muslim, will Allah forgive him!” I obviously did not know how to react. The bus arrived and we all got in. But that man’s question and the maulvi’s preaching haunts me till today.
In 1992, when Pakistan won the cricket world cup in Australia, Pakistani flags were hoisted in Mohammed Ali road. There were feasts organized for people visiting that area. I remember reading in the newspapers that there was ‘minor trouble between two communities’ in Mohammed Ali road and now everything was under control.
Today, a majority of Indian Muslims are very proud of the 1993 Bombay blasts. They hold their head high and say, “It was the best thing that could ever happen to the Hindus of this country. They had made our lives miserable. Thank Allah for the blasts, now the Hindus respect us out of fear”.
Today, Muslims come out in protest for being under scrutiny if there is a blast somewhere. Instead of helping the law to book the criminals, they protest to protect them, giving the excuse that the Muslim community has been secluded and has no right to express themselves and sing praises of Pakistan – a country that fought for freedom with us. But when freedom came, they stabbed us in the back.
I belong to the Sindhi community that sacrificed it’s homeland to accommodate the Muslims in Pakistan. I feel secluded because like the Marathas, Gujaratis, Tamils and other communities, I have no State to identify myself with. Being a citizen of India, I feel discriminated against when my letters to newspaper editors are not printed. I also feel angry when my bag is checked for a bomb when I go to malls and movie houses. It angers me when the bank questions me about my source of income. It enrages me when I am asked for my identification when entering the airport. So what should I do? Should I blame the Muslims for this? Isn’t it because of them that I have to undergo this humiliation? Does that give me enough justification to make bombs and keep them in Muslim dominated areas and blow them to bits? I need an answer to this.
People might say that, if the 1993 Bombay blasts are justified, then so is the Godhra incident. The Muslims should not complain anymore. The accounts have been set right.
But I do not agree with them because I am not proud of the Godhra incident.
I still remember Firoze’s parting words. He had said, “I thought Muslims in this country stayed back because we believed that India belongs to us and Pakistan belongs to traitors. How wrong was I to believe that, when today I see my own community destroying the very country that gave them everything”.
How true. Mr. Zakir Hussain, Chief Justice Mohammed Hidayatullah, Mr. Fakhrudin Ali Ahmed were Muslims. Shah Rukh Khan is a Muslim. So is Sania Mirza. If Muslims were discriminated against, we would never have had Muslim Presidents. Dr. Abdul Kalam would never have become a scientist and the President of India. Shah Rukh Khan, who had no roots in the film industry, would never have been a Superstar. Mr. Azim Premji of WIPRO would never have been the richest man of India. Quoted in rediff.com on Nov 13, 2002 Mr. Premji said “I would not be holding the position of the chairman of a software company if I had been discriminated against in India”. These are only a few examples and there are many more, which the Muslims of this country fail to see.
This land, this country has given everything to those who have worked hard and have contributed towards the growth of this nation.
If India ever goes to war and bombs are dropped on this country, the bombs will not spare Muslims because they believe in Allah, and kill Hindus because they believe in Bhagwan and Christians because they believe in God. We will all die.
History has time and again given us examples to open our eyes. Whenever mankind has devised plans and elements to destroy others, those elements have become powerful over a period of time and attacked and destroyed their own mentors and creators. Indira Gandhi empowered Bindranwala. America empowered the Taliban. We have seen the results.
To break this vicious cycle of hate and violence each one of us in our own community will have to come out strongly and speak out against those who are using religion to spread death and destruction.
It ultimately remains the responsibility of each citizen of this country to stop radical and extremist forces within their own communities from taking further roots and destroying the social fabric of our country. Weather these elements are from SIMI or Bajrang Dal, Indian Mujahideen or VHP. They are all the same. If they are encouraged further, one day they will turn against their own communities. The only chance we have to stop them is, now.
Jai Hind.
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