Muslims Together - Ahmadiyya Muslims February 19, 2012

AA

Just as I respect the Shia, Ismaili, Bohra, Sunni and Sufi traditions, I respect the Ahmadiyya for believing in their spiritual leader Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, that is what the faith is all about.  Neither the Ahmadiyya has to prove anything, nor have others to disprove anything.  After all, no one but you is responsible individually for your beliefs, and there is no compulsion in the matters of faith.

The problems emanate from the quoting Hadith and Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Irfan is right, if we stick with the Quraan, we would have fewer conflicts.  

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)  has set an example for us to follow in an issue like this; when the Quraish objected to his signature as Muhammad ar Rasool Allah, Prophet Muhammad agreed to change it to Muhammad bin Abdullah, because he understood, and respected a different point of view from the Quraish, who did not see him as the Prophet. Applying the same principle here, I have no problem accepting Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a great spiritual Master in the league of Ajmeeri Khawaja, Bulle Shah, Data Shakar Ganj, Nizamuddin and host of great men and women for propagating the message of Prophet Muhammad.

Let's learn to respect Ahmadiyya Muslims as fellow Muslims.  I want to be clear that I do not accept Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the Promised Messiah, but respect him for his work, and respect the Ahmadiyya Muslims for their belief. There is a difference in accepting and respecting, in the tradition of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

The ill-will and belligerent attitudes of (a few) Muslims towards Ahmadiyya Muslims is shameful. If we follow the Prophet and truly believe that he was Rahmatul Aalameen, we need to show that it in our character. Shame on us if we become a Zahmat to others that is not what Prophet Muhammad was all about. He was a Rahmat to the humanity and we better follow him, if we claim to be his Ummah.

 

Jazak Allah Khair
Mike Ghouse

. . . . . .  . . . . .  . . . . . . . . .

Wa alaikum salam wa rahmatullah, brothers Khawar and Yousef:

Thank you for the information you put on the forum in defense of your Muslim community. I am sure theres a lot more that you can say and there a lot more that folks in the other camp can say, but I have just a few questions for both your brothers, or any other Ahmadi Muslims. I mean no harm or malice to anyone; I am asking these questions with compete sincerity.

1.  Is there any explicit reference of the 2nd coming of Mehdiâ or Jesus mentioned in the Qurâan? If so, where? Just from the Qurâan, please.

2. Â Mirza Sahib wrote: <<<The one who rejects me, rejects the One Who has sent me>>>.Â

Does that mean that those who reject Mirza Sahib as a prophet/Messiah are kaafirs? Did Mirza Sahib call anyone kaafir to those who rejected him?

3. Br. Yousef wrote <<< Are you really telling me that with the coming of the Prophet(saw) that the door of prophethood is closed. >>>.Â

Does that mean that more prophets will keep on coming till the DOJâ€"and that even Mirza Sahib is not the last prophet? If not, has any prophet come or expected to come any time soon after Mirza Sahib?Â

Or, do you believe the Mirza Sahib is the Last prophet and after him, no one will appear?

That all for now. Thank you in advance.

Irfan

From: Khawar [mailto:khawar-m@usa.net]
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 1:53 PM
To: 'Aurangzeb Khan'
 

Dear Mr. Khan,

Assalam O Ailiakum Wa Rahmatullahe

Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama’at is a true representation of Shariat-e-Mohammadi (SAW) and following the teaching of our beloved Prophet (SAW). Allah has been very gracious on the Umma of Hadhrat Mohammad (SAW) and sent Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as reformer of this age. It is not surprising that people in general rejected him as the Promised Messiah & Mahdi, whose advent was foretold by Hadhrat Mohammad (SAW) and instead of analyzing his teachings and sayings they shout slogans of Kafir, Kafir. The reason, the public in general reject him is simple and in his words:

Remember his words in this saying ‘ I am the impregnable fortress for this age….’ hence Ahmadies are truly treading the path of righteousness under blessing of this fortress.

Such was the grandeur of the Holy founder of Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama’at. At another place, he tells us about a special Barkah gifted by Allah to him i.e. understanding of the Holy Quran

Allah was with him throughout his lifetime and still is with his Jama’at today because he was commissioned by Him.

Mr. Khan & his associates has to do a very simple act i.e. to pray & supplicate earnestly to Allah that He may guide them to the truth & light. Allah would for sure show them the light.

Jazak Allah

Khawar

From: Yousef Walker [mailto:yousef.walker@alshaya.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 5:33 PM
To: 'Aurangzeb Khan'
 
Subject: RE: Definition of a Muslim and Khatm e Nabuwat

Dear Mr. Khan

Like Mr. Amir I am also an Ahmadi. Leaving aside the wrongs and rights our respective differences in belief for 1 minute, I have always found it someone ludicrous that people go to such lengths to try and prove the false nature of someone else claiming to be Muslim. For me, the task of keeping my own self on the straight and narrow is so very compelling to me that I just have no time to sit in judgment of others. I feel that if I started to go down that road then I would quickly lose sight of my own faults and even obtain a sense of arrogance and superiority over those I was seeking to denounce.

Furthermore, do we believe that Allah the Almighty will not defend the Holy Prophet(saw) and the religion he brought from attack. If what the Ahmadis are saying is false then surely nothing will stand in the way of Allah’s displeasure and wrath, and Allah certainly does not need any mortal to protect Him or His Prophet(saw). Thus aren’t people not in fact engaging in a form of shirk by seeking to the nth degree to denounce Ahmadis or anyone else as disbelievers since they seek to put themselves in the place of Allah the Almighty.

I would like to add that whereas some Muslims believe they are somehow protecting the good name of the Holy Prophet(saw), by insisting that he is the final Prophet they are in fact doing the opposite since they are not applying logic to their argument, they are just repeating statements parrot fashion without any attempt at deeper insight or wisdom into what such statements were intended to mean. Are you really telling me that with the coming of the Prophet(saw) that the door of prophethood is closed. What you fail to realize is that prophethood is actually a blessing. A quote from the book Invitation to Ahmadiyyat states:

We do not think the Holy Prophet came and closed off the known avenues of spiritual progress. We think instead that the advent of the Holy Prophet provided expanded opportunities and means for spiritual advancement. We do not think the Holy Prophet came to stop human beings from attaining nearness to God. Just as we hate to think that any revealed teacher can now supersede the Holy Prophet, we also hate to think that the coming of the Holy Prophet is the end of revelation and of the blessings which revelation brings. Both beliefs are derogatory to the Holy Prophet and subversive of his teaching. We accept neither the one nor the other. We are certain that the Holy Prophet was a blessing for mankind. We know that the blessings and beneficence of the Holy Prophet continue. His coming has not prevented mankind from earning spiritual benefits. Instead, the spiritual benefits and graces which God has ever granted to human beings have begun to flow more copiously than before. If before they were a stream, they have since become a mighty river. Before the Holy Prophet, knowledge of spiritual matters had not advanced very far. With the coming of the Holy Prophet it attained perfection; and only spiritual knowledge can bring spiritual wisdom. \

The Holy Quran teaches what had not been taught before by any Heavenly Book. The Holy Prophet, therefore, was gifted with a deeper insight into spiritual matters than had been granted to anyone before. Increase of spiritual insight enables believers today to attain spiritual heights which could not be attained before. But for such blessings, what superiority can the Holy Prophet have over other prophets? The attainment of prophethood independently of the Holy Prophet is not possible now. That is why we deny that the Messiah of Nazareth can return to guide the followers of the Holy Prophet. His coming would be without the spiritual guardianship of the Holy Prophet. But prophethood which comes through the Holy Prophet and which, therefore, is glory to him, we cannot deny. May God illumine the reader's heart with spiritual light and open wide his mind.

A prophet who supersedes an earlier prophet is one who brings a new law and who attains his rank without the tutelage of the earlier prophet. But a prophet who attains his rank through dependence on the earlier prophet, through the grace and influence of his example and teaching, and through obedience to him, does not and cannot supersede the earlier prophet. Far from being derogatory to him, this sort of prophethood glorifies the earlier prophet, his teaching and example. This way to prophethood, it appears from the Holy Quran, is open to attainment by the followers of the Holy Prophet.

Ordinary human reason also supports such a view. For if such a prophethood is not attainable by the followers of the Holy Prophet, then the followers of the Holy Prophet can have no superiority over the followers of other prophets. The Holy Prophet has said that among the followers of Moses there were persons who attained the status of Muhaddath, a spiritual rank lower than that of a prophet. Therefore, if the spiritual example and influence of the Holy Prophet can result in raising persons to a status no higher than that of Muhaddath, then the Holy Prophet cannot be superior to other prophets and yet he is 'the best of mankind' and 'the best of prophets'. To be 'the best of prophets', it is necessary for the Holy Prophet to possess merits not possessed by earlier prophets. This distinctive merit, according to us, is that the followers of earlier prophets could attain at most the status of Muhaddath. The spiritual power of earlier prophets could achieve no more. But the followers of the Holy Prophet can attain the status of prophets, and this is due to the superior spiritual influence of the Holy Prophet's example and teaching. Thanks to this, a believer has his heart full of love for the Holy Prophet and of devotion to his person and example. If the advent of the Holy Prophet put an end to the attainment of this sort of prophethood, then his advent has to be accounted not as a blessing but as a bane. The Holy Quran has to be dismissed as a useless book. For if the followers of this Prophet and this Book cannot attain the status of prophets, we have to admit that before his advent it was possible for believers to rise to this spiritual station, but that it has become impossible after his advent. Books revealed before the Holy Quran had the power to raise their readers and followers to the status of prophets (that is, to enable them to reach that degree of divine grace); but the Holy Quran does not have this power! If this were really true, the hearts of true believers would bleed and their spirits would cool.

The coming of the Holy Prophet, the promised 'mercy unto all the worlds', 'the chief of all prophets', was to open new ways to spiritual advancement; by following him they were to come closer to their Lord than ever before. But, instead, even the doors open before are to be closed to them. No true believer can for a moment entertain such a thought about the Holy Prophet. No one who loves the Holy Prophet can believe such a thing. God be our witness, the Holy Prophet was an ocean of spiritual blessings and spiritual possibilities which no mortal may measure. The doors to spiritual blessings and spiritual progress have not been closed by him. They have instead been thrown wide open. This is the difference between him and the earlier prophets. The followers of earlier prophets could reach the rank of Muhaddath. To reach the rank of Nabuwwat (prophethood), they had to have further training and tuition. It is different with the followers of the Holy Prophet. Obedience to him and imitation of his example can raise a man to the rank of prophet; even as prophet, however, the follower remains a follower. However high his rank, he cannot go out of the fold. He remains the Holy Prophet's slave and servant. He may attain high rank but the height of his rank cannot alter his status as a follower of the Holy Prophet. For, in fact, the higher his rank, the greater is his indebtedness to the Holy Prophet.

In respect of nearness to God, the Holy Prophet has reached a point which no mortal has ever reached. He has attained a height which others cannot think of attaining. At the same time, the greatness of his status continues to increase at a pace swifter than thought. But as the Holy Prophet advances, so do his followers. As the Holy Prophet steps forward, his followers behind him do likewise. This conception of the spiritual status of the Holy Prophet means that the gift of prophethood should be open to the followers of the Holy Prophet. If such a gift is open to the followers, it will redound to the glory and greatness of the Holy Prophet. If such a gift is abolished it means detraction and defeat for him. Who does not know that an able teacher who will have his ability proved must have able pupils. A great king must have other kings as his vassals. If an able teacher does not produce able pupils, he cannot be very able. A great king who does not have kings below him cannot be very great. An emperor is a king of kings. To be an emperor is an honour. Similarly, a prophet whose followers can be prophets is a greater prophet than prophets whose followers remain followers but cannot become prophets. How this erroneous conception of prophethood became current among Muslims of the present day is an important question. I speak of Muslims of the present day because earlier doctors of the faith have views quite contrary to the conception accepted by the present day Muslims. Saints and scholars like Mohyal-Din Ibnal- Arabi, Ibn-i-Qayim, Maulana Rumi, and Hazrat Shaikh Ahmad of Sirhind can be cited among the great doctors of the Muslim faith who have expressed views contrary to the views held by Muslims of the present day on this subject.

The erroneous conception arose because Muslims began to interpret the term Nabuwwat in a wrong manner. Somehow they began to think that a prophet must be a law-giver also. He must either bring a new law, or he must abrogate parts of an older law, or he must be free from the obligation to obey an earlier prophet. The fact of the matter is that these conditions are not necessary in order for a prophet to be a prophet. A prophet may or may not fulfil these conditions. A person may fulfil none of these conditions and yet be a prophet. Though he does not bring a new law, does not abrogate any part of an earlier law, and is not free from the obligation to follow an earlier prophet, he may still be a prophet. For prophethood is a spiritual state, a degree of nearness to God. A person who attains this state, this degree of nearness, is appointed to lead mankind to God. He is charged with the duty of revivifying the spiritually dead and of making green the hearts which have become dry through a spiritual drought. It is his duty to tell mankind of the revelation he has received from God, to gather those who believe in him and his revelation, and to make of them a Jama'at willing to devote their lives to the propagation of Truth. His example should have the effect of cleansing people's hearts and of raising the quality and level of their everyday actions. In short, people have begun to deny or to doubt the continuity of the gift of prophethood, because they have failed to grasp the meaning of this spiritual state. Some states of prophethood are such that their continuity among the followers of the Holy Prophet only raises his status instead of lowering it.

Thus by saying no prophet can come after the Holy Prophet(saw) you are actually saying that one could not reach a higher spiritual status to that of those who follow previous prophets (Allah forbid).

Further, in your email you ask if Ahmadis mean to say that (Allah forbid) the Holy Prophet(saw) did not finish his job and the Promised Messiah has been sent to in fact finish it. Nothing could be further to the truth. The Holy Prophet(saw) brought the perfect and complete message of Islam to mankind. The Promised Messiah was sent as a servant of the Holy Prophet(saw) (as indeed we should all be) and not to change a single iota of what the Holy Prophet(saw) taught us. However, notwithstanding Islam delivering the perfect message, people are not perfect. People cause there to be divisions and have caused the true teachings of Islam to be practiced incorrectly. Just look around you, watch the news and you will see that Islam is not being practiced by many as Allah had intended it to be practiced. Thus, it is due to Allah’s Mercy and Grace that He granted us a Prophet, the Promised Messiah, to come and clarify those misconceptions and bad practices.

I will pray for you my Brother since I cannot of myself see or change your heart (which is main point here), the only One who can see and change a heart is Allah the Almighty.

Wassalam

Yousef

From: Aurangzeb Khan [mailto:axk1023@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 3:31 PM
To: Amir Rana; samad khan
 
Subject: Re: Definition of a Muslim and Khatm e Nabuwat

Mr Rana -

I do not infer anything. It is absolutely a requirement for being a Muslim.

1-WHen you say La Ilaaha Il-Lhaahu Muhammed-ur-Rasool Allah, what does believing in Muhammad=ar-Rasool Allah mean? It is Allah who said that Muhammad (phuh) is Khaatam-un-Nabyeen. And Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) said that (meaning) "I am Khaatam-un-Nabyeen. There will be no one made Prophet after me". So, whoever denies this is a Kafir without any doubt.

In the times of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) not a single believer believed that anyone will be given prophethood after that of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). I have this statement in most of my emails. Prophey Muhammed (pbuh) repeated warned Muslims of false prophets after him, among many other things to come. But he (pbuh) did not tell us of any true prophet to be made after him or ordered us Muslims to follow him.

DO you mean that Allah of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) did not finish the job and now Mirza Qadiani is the one to finish it?

Can anyone who violates an clear order of Quran be considered a Muslim? Can anyone who makes a mockery of Quran like Mirza Qadiani did, be considered a Muslim? Can anyone who claims to be reincarnation of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) as Mirza Qadiani did, be considered a Muslim? All this in the light of Quran.

You take examples of Sahaba who did not beliebe anything like these Qadianis do, and them apply on Qadianis. How can this be equitable? Apples to apples please.

2- You talk about interpretation. I have also written plenty on interpretations. Here is it again. Let us say that you said something to convey a message. In saying whatever you did, you chose some words that you consider to be representative of your ideas. But I read them differently. Would it be fair to say that what I (wrongly) understood from your words is the correct meanings of what you said? I am not sure of how you will answer, but a sane person would say that no, it would not be correct.

The correct interpretation is of the one who makes a statement. Same goes for Allah's Words. After all, when Allah used the Words "Khaatam-un-Nabyeen", He also meant to convey a very clear message. So, is it open to contradictory but held equally valid "interpretations"? I hope not. And I hope that you to hope so.

SO what is the correct opinion? The correct opinion would be the one to whom it was explained by Allah Himself, i.e., Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), who very clearly explained that (meaning) "I am Khaatam-un-Nabyeen. No one will be given prophethood after me". "If anyone was to be made Prophet after me, Umer would have been the one". "Allah lead Jews by Prophets. When one Prophet died, Allah sent them another one. But there will be no prophets made after me. There will be Khulafa (Khalifas - not prophets) after me".

SO, if anyone believes differently than he may be entitled to his opinion, but according to "La Illaha Il-Allahu Muhammed-ur-Rasool Allah", he / she cannot be a Muslim.

So take the example of what you quoted. Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) asked if they cut open his heart to ensure whether he was trying to save his life. Fair enough. But would they be justified in killing him if he had said that he also believed that idles were true gods? Would he still be a Muslim?

I gave this example previously as well, but here it comes again. Let us say that a Christian came to us and recited the Kalimah. Of course he is now a Muslim and our brother. But say that next week he came over and said that Jesus was son of God as well. Will he still be considered a Muslim? One would have to tell him that his belief was Kufr and if he kept it, he will be in violation of the Kalimah and not a Muslim till he denounced it.

So yes. In my above example, this Christian made a claim to Islam, by Kalimah. But his claim was hollow, because his belief in Allah was not what Allah has required in Quran and through Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).

My statement means that if someone claims Islam, but his belief is contradictory, then his claim does not mean anything. However, we will hold him to his claim of being a Muslim, while he does not display any Kufr disbelief. Qadianis have abundantly displayed their Kufr by interpreting Quran contradictory to that of Prophet Muhammed's (pbuh). Hope that this settles your confusion.

3- My opinion, or that of anyone else, should not matter. But clear violation of orders of Quran or teachings of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is a different matter. It is this adherence to Quran and teachings of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) that determines whether one is a Muslim or not. When Qadianis interpret Quran contradictory to Quran and Sunnah, then they are not to be considered Muslims.

In Quran there is not a singleton definition of Kufr. What has Allah ascribed for the Kufr of Jews? What for Christians? What about the idol worshipers? In short, any violation in belief of what Allah has ordered is Kufr. It is only this belief in what Allah has ordered that makes one a Muslim, and lack of it makes one a Kafir. Qadanis HAVE violated this.

4- My offer is still valid. Bring along your Murrabies and see how fake and hollow they are and how they have misguided you all.

---

From: Amir Rana <amirmrana@gmail.com>
To: Aurangzeb Khan <axk1023@sbcglobal.net>
Cc: DallasPakistanis@yahoogroups.com; Mike Ghouse Mike Ghouse

Sent: Sun, February 19, 2012 3:35:38 PM
Subject: Definition of a Muslim and Khatm e Nabuwat

Dear brother Khan,

In your recent email you have stressed on following points which can be analysed as follows. I hope you can follow the same pattern for the convenience of readers and myself and you respond to each and every point based on Quranic verses and Ahadith and consider the following Quranic verses while replying and do not consider yourself some authority and give this status to Allah and His prophet alone:

Error! Filename not specified.

[Maida: 44] And whose judges not by that which Allah has sent down, these it is who are the disbelievers.

(Interestingly we found one reason provided by Allah the Almighty for considering some act as Kufr

i.e. making judgments based on something other than what Allah has revealed)

No	Argument	Impression*	Response
1	Qadianis would be a sect of Islam if their belief did not entail clear violation of Quran. And in that case they would be a sect of Islam. But their position on not believing that there will be no more prophethood after that of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is more than evident of the Kufr or of Mirza Qadiani and his follower Qadianis.	You are trying to infer from this that believing Holy Prophet (pbuh) to be the last prophet is included in the definition of a “Muslim”.	Can any definition of a Muslim be found in the Holy Quran, or by the Holy Prophet sa which definition may have been applied without exception during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet sa? If there does exist such a definition then what is it? And in its presence would a muslim even care to bother of how YOU or I define a MUSLIM?????????????? Or you think that Islam was not perfected by Allah at the hands of Holy Prophet sa???? AND Can it be considered legitimate for anyone to propose any definition, in any era, which is in disregard of such a definition which is found in the Holy Quran, or by the Holy Prophet sa, a definition that can be shown to have been applied in the lifetime of the Holy Prophet sa???? Please allow me to mention the definition of a Muslim given by Allah the Almighty and please don’t mind if it’s not consistent with your expectations or wishes Error! Filename not specified. And now let’s look at the sayings of our beloved Master (pbuh) how he defined a Muslim: Error! Filename not specified. One who observes the same prayer as we do, faces the same direction (in prayer) as we do, and partakes from the animal slaughtered by us, then such a one is a Muslim concerning whom there is a covenant of Allah and His Messenger; so you must not seek to hoodwink Allah in the matter of this Covenant. [Bukhari Kitabus-Salat, Baab Fazl Istiqbal il-Qibla] Mr Khan where is the mention of belief in Khatm-e-Nabuwat in this??? Did he forget (God forbid) to mention or Quran and Hadith both could not provide a comprehensive definition of a Muslim???? (Please note that it will be proven later (once you respond to these arguments) that Ahmadis believe Holy Prophet saw to be Khatam an Nabiyeen so strongly and in accord with the teachings of Holy Quran, Ahadith and sayings of saints of Islam) Please apply the above definitions and now dare to call Ahmadies non Muslims and then read the verse of Surah Maida mentioned on the top of this email and conclude yourself!!!!
2	There simply cannot be two opinions regarding this. The case is closed. Now Qadianis may hope to be considered as a sect of Muslims, but Islam is not a claim, but evidence.	You are giving a verdict on someone’s beliefs and Iman because they hold certain beliefs or interpret certain verses differently You are also expressing that Islam is not a claim but evidence, means if someone claims he is a muslim this does not mean anything	The following haidth should be enough to open someone’s eyes who fears Allah: Hadhrat Usama bin Zaidra relates that the Holy Prophetsa sent us to the oasis of Juhaina tribe. We caught them early in the morning at their water-fountains. An Ansari and I chased one of them and apprehended him. When we overpowered him, he exclaimed: La Ilaha Illallah (there is none worthy of worship except Allah) which caused my Ansari Companion to restrain his hand from him, but I pierced him with a spear and killed him. When we returned to Medina and the Holy Prophetsa came to know of the incident, he asked: "O, Usama! Did you kill him in spite of the fact that he had recited La Ilaha Illallah?" I replied: "O, Prophet of Allah! He was saying (these words) merely to ensure his safety." The Holy Prophetsa kept on repeating his question to a point when I wished I had not become a Muslim before that day. (Another tradition relates) The Holy Prophet saw exclaimed: "Why didn't you cut his heart open to make sure if he had said it from the core of his heart?" The Prophet of Allah repeated this remark so many times that I wished I had not become a Muslim before that day." [Bukhari, Book of Al Maghaazi, Chapter Ba'ath al-Nabi, Usaamah bin Zaid ilal Harqaat min al-Juhaina, p. 612] What do you say about this Mr Khan? Which evidence did Holy Prophet saw asked for??? What will you say to Holy Prophet saw on the day of judgment?
3	However, I feel for Qadianis. Please don't get me wrong. They want to be Muslims. The hope to be Muslims. But they cannot be Muslims with their Kufr belief at the same time.	That suggests you understand the definition of Kufr very well. That also suggests that if in one’s opinion someone’s beliefs are Kufr he has not right to be considered as a Muslim	Please mention the definition of Kufr from Quran and Ahadith, and based on that definition would you like to state a couple of this Kufr beliefs. We should realize that the sword of "Kaafir-making" which is being raised today in order to cut us down, the same sword has the deadly capability of not only cutting down the Muslims of Shia or Deobandi persuasions but it can be even deadlier in its potential to cut to pieces, every other school of thought in Islam. In order to add supporting evidence to substantiate the abovementioned bitter truth, a couple of examples are mentioned below, which consists of allegations levelled against other sects, for their indictment. Therefore fatawas (not issued by ordinary people like us) on Kufr of each sect by other sects is available, based on your rational no one has the right to consider himself in the pale of Islam. J Join the club! J Fatwas for Barelvi Sect 1. They accord the rank of God, the Exalted, to the Holy Prophet. [Sham'a-e-Tauheed, p.5, by Maulana Sanaa Ullah Amritsari] 2. In addition to God, they believe the saints to be their problem-solvers (mushkil kushaa) and beseech them for help. [Anwaar-us-Soofiya, Lahore, August, 1915, p.32] 3. They disbelieve in Khatme Nubuwwat. [Insaan-e-Kaamil, ch. 36, by Sayyed Abdul Kareem Jaili] 4. They believe that Divine converse and revelation. (wahi and ilhaam) still continues [Maykhana-e-Dard, pp. 134-135; Futoohaat-e-Mekkiyyah, vol. 4, p. 196] Fatwas for Deobandi Sect 1. They believe that God can lie. [Fataawa-e-Rasheediyyah, vol. 1, p. 19; Deobandi Mazhab, by Maulana Ghulam Mehr Ali Shah Golarhvi] 2. They equate the Holy Prophet's knowledge with that of children, demented persons, and animals. [Hifz-ul-Eemaan, by Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi, p. 9, published in Deoband] 3. Satan's knowledge was more vast than that of the Holy Prophet. [Braaheen-e-Qaate'ah, by Khalil Ahmad, and approved by Rasheed Ahmad Gangohi, p. 51] And the list continues……………..
4	I invite Qadianis individually. Please set up a one on one session with me. Bring along their Murrabi if he / she wants to. I will Insha Allah be very able to show them how wrong and contradictory their belief is to Quran and teachings of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).		JazkAllah for your invitation. Alhamdolilah ordinary Ahmdies are well-equipped to respond to these simple questions, we don’t need to bother our Murrabis who are busy in spreading the message of Islam around the world, and supremacy of Holy Quran and our beloved Master Prophet (saw). As a demonstration please watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pghyEjrykII http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTy_OsOXeko or alternatively watch www.mta.tv Please mention a SINGLE belief of Ahmadiyya Jamat that contradicts with Quran…..
* Please clarify wherever you feel the impression taken is incorrect

Jazakomullah

Wsslam

Kind regards

Amir Rana

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Aurangzeb Khan <axk1023@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Dallas Pakistanis :: RE: Muslims together - Ahmadiyya Muslims (72 Sects)
To: DallasPakistanis@yahoogroups.com, Mike Ghouse Mike Ghouse <mikeghouse@aol.com>, worldmuslimcongress@yahoogroups.com,pakistaniamericans@yahoogroups.com, pakistanpost@yahoogroups.com, Amir Rana <amirmrana@gmail.com>, khawar Mumtaz <khawar-m@usa.net>, "Mashhood." <mashhoodahmed@hotmail.com>, NNizam NNizam <nasirnizam@hotmail.com>, Nishad Ahmad <niahmad@kockw.com>, Salim Ahmed <salim.muneera@gmail.com>, salimpm maliekal <salimpm@gmail.com>, "Safarullah.K.T" <safarullakt@hotmail.com>, Taqiuddin Taqi <ttaqi7@yahoo.com>, Nazimuddeen PP <nazimuddeenpp@gmail.com>, encontra_incorp@hotmail.com, "Dr. Mansoor Ahmed Pak" <mansoordr@hotmail.com>, Drmahmood saeed <masaeed66@hotmail.com>, "Dr. Rasheed Ahmed" <ahmadr60@hotmail.com>, "Dr. Ajaz Ahmed Naik Dr. Ajaz Ahmed" <drajaz786@redifmail.com>, "Dr. Muneeb Ahmad Dr.Muneeb Ahmad" <simuneebahmad@gmail.com>, "Dr. Wissam Alburaki(Qatar )" <w.alburaki@gmail.com>, mj salim galdari <darulfazl@yahoo.co.uk>, "Shafqat Saleem (NBTC Accounts)" <ssaleem@hotmail.com>, Abdul Hadi Uthakkan <abdulhadee@gmail.com>, abdul Hakim Abid <ahabid@yahoo.com>, odeenj jamat <odeenj@yahoo.com>, shahid Parvez Shahid <shahid.parvez@thomsonreuters.com>
Cc: tahirakhan@comcast.net

Qadianis would be a sect of Islam if their belief did not entail clear violation of Quran. And in that case they would be a sect of Islam.

But their position on not believing that there will be no more prophethood after that of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is more than evident of the Kufr or of Mirza Qadiani and his follower Qadianis. There simply cannot be two opinions regarding this. The case is closed.

Now Qadianis may hope to be considered as a sect of Muslims, but Islam is not a claim, but evidence. It would be a wishful thinking on part of Qadianis.

However, I feel for Qadianis. Please don't get me wrong. They want to be Muslims. The hope to be Muslims. But they cannot be Muslims with their Kufr belief at the same time.

I invite Qadianis individually. Please set up a one on one session with me. Bring along their Murrabi if he / she wants to. I will Insha Allah be very able to show them how wrong and contradictory their belief is to Quran and teachings of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). Then if they want to be Muslims, they will have that opportunity. Or they might consider continuing to be Qadianis.

Those who desire, send me their email or phone number privately to my email address, or ask me for mine.

---

From: Faiz <tahirakhan@comcast.net>
To: DallasPakistanis@yahoogroups.com; axk1023@sbcglobal.net; Mike Ghouse Mike Ghouse <mikeghouse@aol.com>; worldmuslimcongress@yahoogroups.com;pakistaniamericans@yahoogroups.com; pakistanpost@yahoogroups.com; Amir Rana <amirmrana@gmail.com>; khawar Mumtaz <khawar-m@usa.net>; Mashhood. <mashhoodahmed@hotmail.com>; NNizam NNizam <nasirnizam@hotmail.com>; Nishad Ahmad <niahmad@kockw.com>; Salim Ahmed <salim.muneera@gmail.com>; salimpm maliekal <salimpm@gmail.com>; Safarullah.K.T <safarullakt@hotmail.com>; Taqiuddin Taqi <ttaqi7@yahoo.com>; Nazimuddeen PP <nazimuddeenpp@gmail.com>; encontra_incorp@hotmail.com; Dr. Mansoor Ahmed Pak <mansoordr@hotmail.com>; Drmahmood saeed <masaeed66@hotmail.com>; Dr. Rasheed Ahmed <ahmadr60@hotmail.com>; Dr. Ajaz Ahmed Naik Dr. Ajaz Ahmed <drajaz786@redifmail.com>; Dr. Muneeb Ahmad Dr.Muneeb Ahmad <simuneebahmad@gmail.com>; Dr. Wissam Alburaki(Qatar ) <w.alburaki@gmail.com>; mj salim galdari <darulfazl@yahoo.co.uk>; Shafqat Saleem (NBTC Accounts) <ssaleem@hotmail.com>; Abdul Hadi Uthakkan <abdulhadee@gmail.com>; abdul Hakim Abid <ahabid@yahoo.com>; odeenj jamat <odeenj@yahoo.com>; shahid Parvez Shahid <shahid.parvez@thomsonreuters.com>
Sent: Sat, February 18, 2012 9:30:02 AM

Subject: RE: Dallas Pakistanis :: RE: Muslims together - Ahmadiyya Muslims (72 Sects)

<<< According to you the Hadith is correct and based on Rasululla (sa) and H. Umer (ra)’ s sayings, Ahmadis are that one Firqa (sect) mentioned in the saidHadith. Then how could you call them Kafirs? Do you know that every Ahmadi wherever they live, they have given pledge to their Khalifa thereby they have sold their lives to their Huzoor,. This example you can see only with the Sahabas of Rasulullah (sa) and no other sect could claim.>>>

And: <<< Neither the sect in which you belong to nor any other sect, (other than Ahmadies) could ever claim that because they never qualify to become a Jama’atsince they don’t have a living Imam to follow.>>>

Ismaili Muslims claim the same thing! They have a ‘living imam’â€"in fact, their imam ascends even higher in honor and spiritual status because he claims to have descended from the progeny of Prophet Muhammad!

So how come Ismailis are not “that 73’rd sect”?

I thinks Ahmadi Muslims have at least ONE other contender for the claim to the one and only “73’rd sect”!

Irfan

From: DallasPakistanis@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DallasPakistanis@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ahmed ismail
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:45 PM
To: axk1023@sbcglobal.net; dallaspakistanis@yahoogroups.com; Mike Ghouse Mike Ghouse; worldmuslimcongress@yahoogroups.com; pakistaniamericans@yahoogroups.com;pakistanpost@yahoogroups.com; Amir Rana; khawar Mumtaz; Mashhood.; NNizam NNizam; Nishad Ahmad; Salim Ahmed; salimpm maliekal; Safarullah.K.T; Taqiuddin Taqi; Nazimuddeen PP; encontra_incorp@hotmail.com; Dr. Mansoor Ahmed Pak; Drmahmood saeed; Dr. Rasheed Ahmed; Dr. Ajaz Ahmed Naik Dr. Ajaz Ahmed; Dr. Muneeb Ahmad Dr.Muneeb Ahmad; Dr. Wissam Alburaki(Qatar ); mj salim galdari; Shafqat Saleem (NBTC Accounts); Abdul Hadi Uthakkan; abdul Hakim Abid; odeenj jamat; shahid Parvez Shahid
Subject: RE: Dallas Pakistanis :: RE: Muslims together - Ahmadiyya Muslims (72 Sects)

Bismillahirrahmanirrahim, Nahmaduhu Wa nusalli Alaa Rasulihil Karim

My dear brother Aurangzeb Saheb,

Assalam O Aalaikum W.R.W.B

Thanks for your mail.

I just wonder from where you get this authority to certify between Kufr and Islam.

You said that “If they want to become Muslims, they are welcome. But Kufr is not a sect of Islam “.

That sounds as if Kufr, Islam are under your sole authority and you have somehow acquired a certain license to give such certification to others.

Do you consider Islam as a political party like PPP or something wherein the leader of a party has the authority to allow someone to join his party?

I gave you some very basic information on the Hadith on 72/73 sects.

Unfortunately or unknowingly you have agreed that " Hadith ( Sect 72/73 ) is correct and authentic ",

You are really caught here because, if you have ever known that this is one of the strongest points for Ahmadies to claim that they are the that Sect mentioned by Rasulullah (sa) as “ Ma Alaihi Wa Ashabihi and Hiya Al Jamat “ definitely you would not haveagree to this.

Neither the sect in which you belong to nor any other sect, (other than Ahmadies) could ever claim that because they never qualify to become a Jama’at since they don’t have a living Imam to follow.

To know more about the importance of living as a jamat under a Khalifa you can go through the following:

When Rasulullah ( sa ) passed away, the sahabas never allowed themselves to live even a part of a day without the leadership of a Khalifa and hence after electing Hadhrat Abu Bakr (ra) as Khalifa only then they proceeded to offer the holy Janaza of Rasulullah (sa).

According to you the Hadith is correct and based on Rasululla (sa) and H. Umer (ra)’ s sayings, Ahmadis are that one Firqa (sect) mentioned in the said Hadith. Then how could you call them Kafirs? Do you know that every Ahmadi wherever they live, they have given pledge to their Khalifa thereby they have sold their lives to their Huzoor,. This example you can see only with the Sahabas of Rasulullah (sa) and no other sect could claim.

Let me give you one more proof.

If you go through the day to day affairs of the different sects of Islam, and as Justice Munir commission rightly observed, not one sect could agree on the definition of a Muslim. Every other sect was Kafir in the view of the others thus meaning all the 72 sects branded each other as Kafirs. However, when the question of an Ahmadi arise, don’t you see that all these 72 Sects join together immediately and start throwing stones at this poor Jama’at and brand them as Kafirs. Unfortunately, You have also done the same. At this time, they conveniently forget their differences and the fact that they themselves were Kafir in the view of each other. Do you want any further explanation or examples on this subject I be happy to provide you...

Thus, from the above it is quite evident as to who belong to 72 and who is that one Jama’at which had been separated by Rasululla (sa) as Janati.

On the first para you said that "But all these sects will wind up in Hell Fire except one”, whereas in the next para you say:-

" But keep in mind that none of these sects will be considered out of the folds of Islam, as Qadianis are”.

What a contradicting statement?

2) Now, on the question of Khatam Un Nabiyyin, I had passed a question onto you to produce at least one verse from the Holy Quran in support of your point and I’d promised to give you not less than 10 in my support if you so wish..

You did not replied to that neither did you asked me to produce proof. Instead you said,

“But for now I am about to get on my way to the airport. Will respond in two weeks “

My humble argument to this would be that even you take 2 centuries instead of 2 weeks, you will not be able to produce even one verse from the H. Quran in support of your views.

May Almighty Allah bless us all to the right path - Sirat Al Mustaqueem-! Amin.

Brotherly yours, Ahmed Ismail

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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 06:16:28 -0800
From: axk1023@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: Dallas Pakistanis :: RE: Muslims together - Ahmadiyya Muslims (72 Sects)
To: DallasPakistanis@yahoogroups.com; mikeghouse@aol.com; worldmuslimcongress@yahoogroups.com; pakistaniamericans@yahoogroups.com;pakistanpost@yahoogroups.com; amirmrana@gmail.com; khawar-m@usa.net; mashhoodahmed@hotmail.com; nasirnizam@hotmail.com; niahmad@kockw.com;salim.muneera@gmail.com; salimpm@gmail.com; safarullakt@hotmail.com; ttaqi7@yahoo.com; nazimuddeenpp@gmail.com; encontra_incorp@hotmail.com;mansoordr@hotmail.com; masaeed66@hotmail.com; ahmadr60@hotmail.com; drajaz786@redifmail.com; simuneebahmad@gmail.com; w.alburaki@gmail.com;darulfazl@yahoo.co.uk; ssaleem@hotmail.com; abdulhadee@gmail.com; ahabid@yahoo.com; odeenj@yahoo.com; shahid.parvez@thomsonreuters.com
CC: aismaail@hotmail.com

All I am saying is Qadiani belief is Kufr. If they want to become Muslims, they are welcome. But Kufr is not a sect of Islam. Please.

SO you sir, don't be Hell bound in turning Islam to something else. Please.

But for now I am about to get on my way to the airport. Will respond in two weeks.

---

From: ahmed ismail <aismaail@hotmail.com>
To: mikeghouse@aol.com; worldmuslimcongress@yahoogroups.com; dallaspakistanis@yahoogroups.com; pakistaniamericans@yahoogroups.com; pakistanpost@yahoogroups.com; Amir Rana <amirmrana@gmail.com>; khawar Mumtaz <khawar-m@usa.net>; Mashhood. <mashhoodahmed@hotmail.com>; NNizam NNizam <nasirnizam@hotmail.com>; Nishad Ahmad <niahmad@kockw.com>; Salim Ahmed <salim.muneera@gmail.com>; salimpm maliekal <salimpm@gmail.com>; Safarullah.K.T <safarullakt@hotmail.com>; Taqiuddin Taqi <ttaqi7@yahoo.com>; Nazimuddeen PP <nazimuddeenpp@gmail.com>; encontra_incorp@hotmail.com; Dr. Mansoor Ahmed Pak <mansoordr@hotmail.com>; Drmahmood saeed <masaeed66@hotmail.com>; Dr. Rasheed Ahmed <ahmadr60@hotmail.com>; Dr. Ajaz Ahmed Naik Dr. Ajaz Ahmed <drajaz786@redifmail.com>; Dr. Muneeb Ahmad Dr.Muneeb Ahmad <simuneebahmad@gmail.com>; Dr. Wissam Alburaki(Qatar ) <w.alburaki@gmail.com>; mj salim galdari <darulfazl@yahoo.co.uk>; Shafqat Saleem (NBTC Accounts) <ssaleem@hotmail.com>; Abdul Hadi Uthakkan <abdulhadee@gmail.com>; abdul Hakim Abid <ahabid@yahoo.com>; odeenj jamat <odeenj@yahoo.com>; shahid Parvez Shahid <shahid.parvez@thomsonreuters.com>
Sent: Thu, February 16, 2012 12:47:11 AM
Subject: Dallas Pakistanis :: RE: Muslims together - Ahmadiyya Muslims (72 Sects)

-------"-

Bismillahirrahmanirrahim

Dear Brothers and sisters, Assalam O Aalaikum W R W B.

Our brother Aurangazeb saheb is hell bount on sending someone who say La Ilaha Illallah Muhammadurrasulullah to hell rather than trying to bring a non believer to the fold of Islam.

Who gave this authority to him is well known to him only. In this effort he even dares to close his eyes firmly in a broad day light and say right now it is dark.. Further , he expects others to say yes to his such views.

How he twists the facts to his taste w/o understanding that others have their own commonsense and intelligence to understand the facts.,

Let us see how he twistes the facts:-

He is compelled to agree that the: ( I quote his own words )

" Hadith ( Sect 72/73 ) is correct and authentic "

Also, he continues:-

a) "But all these sects will wind up in Hell Fire except one. When asked which sect will be the saved one, he (pbuh) said that the one which had the same belief as his and his companions.

But, shamelessly he twists and continues:-

b) " But keep in mind that none of these sects will be considered out of the folds of Islam, as Qadianis are. Qadianis commit Kufr and cannot be a sect of Islam. These sects will be of Muslims, but would have invented and added new things in Islam. After their punishment is over in Hell, they too will qualify for the Mercy of Allah and sent to Jannah. "

He further adds :-

" The distinction of the saved sect is that because its belief will be correct, it will not go to Hell at all, and Allah by His Mercy will send them directly to Jannah. "

What a wonderful quotation, meaning and explanation! Who gave the authority for him to decide who is hell bount and who are not?

See the contradiction between a) & b) which is a marking given by me for easy understanding of the fact. See his audacity to twist the facts.

In contrast to that let us try to see what is the actual HadithL( Pl see the Arabic text )

":-----Ummathin alaa thalatha sabeena millatan. Kulluhum finnara illa millaatan vahida. Qaloo Man Hiya ya Rasulullah. Qala. Ma Ana alaihi Wa Ashabi---( Rawa Tirmidhi )

Also we find further

173:- (33) Rivayat Ahmad Wa Abi Dawood " ---- Sabaoona finnar. Wa wahidatan fil janna. Wa hiya Al Jamaatu-------"-

Error! Filename not specified.

Means,That except one who will be like “ me and my Sahabas and they will be as a Jamaat”

Now, to know what is meant by a jamaat,let us go to the sayings of H.Umer (ra), who said” La Islama Illa bil Jamaata, Wa laa Jamata Illa Bil Imarata, Wa La Imarata Illa Bil Itaata.”

Means, there is no Islam w/o a Jamaat, and no Islam w/o an Imarat, and no Imarat w/o Itaat ( obedience ).

Connecting the above, now let us try to find out whether today, has any one got a claim that they belong to a Jamaat in the true sense, with a world- wide Imam for them to follow. except that of Ahmadiyya jamat where the entire members, where ever they are spread in the whole world, giving allegiance to their one and only Imam H. Mirza Masrur Ahmed.

Thus, who belong to this one in 72/73, living as a jamat is clear like sun light. So what ever twisting any one makes to the sayings of Rasulullah (sa), it is not going to help them. And they only will be answerable to Allah for their misguiding of the common people.

Coming back to the question of Khatamunnabiyyin, I would like to request brother Aurangazeb and his associates to bring forth at least one verse fromthe H.Quran other than 33:40 ( Which itself is not helping their views ) in their support. and I promise to bring forth not less than 10 verses from the H. Quran for supporting our views..

Now, my final request to my dear brother and his associates. Leave the poor Ahmadies, who are spread over the entire globe, alone. Let them follow their one and only Imam , carry out their blessed duty of spreading the beautiful , loving and peaceful message of Rasulullah (sa), the Rahmatul Lil Aalamin . Let them spend their time, energy and money for this sake.

Instead of placing hurdles to them, you also do your part in spreading the peaceful message of Islam to the world, Refrain from making the one who recites the blessed kalmia la Ilaha Illalah Muhammad Rasulullah as Kafir.

May Almighty Allah open your hard core hearts and enlighten it with love, wisdom and understanding! Amin.

Wasslam, Brotherly, Ahmed ismail

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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From: MikeGhouse@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 20:30:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Muslims together - Ahmadiyya Muslims (72 Sects)
To: worldmuslimcongress@yahoogroups.com; DallasPakistanis@yahoogroups.com; PakistaniAmericans@yahoogroups.com; pakistanpost@yahoogroups.com

Comments from Iran, Hannan, Aurangzeb, Ayaz and Armoghan listed below.

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As Muslims we practice hearing out each other, so, you find from wise to ugly statements, but "usually relevant" to the thread, it is all a part of living in a free world.

You are welcome to join World Muslim Congress by sending an email to WorldMuslimCongress-subscribe@yahoogroups.com and you can also see some of the information at http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/

---

ABOUT 72 SECTS IN ISLAM AND WHO EARNS GOD’S GRACE

Diversity is natural and intentional, nothing is alike, and to be different is to be human and that is apparently God’s plan. The world will never be 100% Muslim, Christian, Hindu or otherwise, however everyone hopes for it as conclusion.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) understood human nature more than anyone else. No wonder Islam is also referred to as the Deen of fitra.

So the number 72 implies diversity and a large number, but not precisely 72. Oddly that number is also used as a selling point by pervert clergy in their pornographic Khutbas, some of which we have watched recently.

Who will go to hell?

God does not stereo type any group; it is always the individual who gets the rewards or punishment; that is clearly established in Islam, is it not?

It is like the class room, most of the students will pass, and some will be ranked among top three or top ten. The entire class will never score 100, only a few will fail, and they have the option (repent and ask for forgiveness) to retake (not repeat the mistakes) the exam and pass, there is an opportunity to redress.

So we will have 72 groups with varying beliefs and each one of them is urged to do his or her best, and one of them will earn the ranks, all others will make it with an exception of one or two who will bear the burden of their wrong doing. Ahmadiyya, Bohra, Shia, Sunni, Ismaili, Sufi, Wahabbi, Deen Muhammad are the magnificent groups at this time, and no group will be punished. God does not believe in collective punishment, it will be always the individuals. Exception: The Sodom and Gomorrah community, which we need to, understand as the facts on the dirt are different than interpreted heretofore.

There is no pre-judgment in Islam and only Allah and the individual will know what is in one’s heart. Allah gives the individual all the opportunities in life, but will not pre-judge any one, that is the wise reason why we have to believe in the Day of Judgment to prevent societies from becoming God.

Allah maintains professional confidentiality to prevent an individual from becoming judgmental towards fellow being. When God is through with the accountability on the appointed day, he will make the decision which no one but God and the person will know. God does not announce it to the public about who is going to hell or heaven, the only way to find out is if you are in their company.

The state does not have the authority to judge one’s faith, it is Allah’s prerogative. The state as a representative of the people can punish the individual for externalities like theft, breaking a contract, rape and being destructive.

What the Mullah’s of Pakistan, Bangladesh, India (Muslims), Indonesia, Iran or Saudi Arabia has done is usurp authority of God, they have no right to pre-judge or declare anyone. God boldly goes against these governments and Mullahs by telling them in their face without blinking an eye; that, whether you are Jew, Christian, or whatever, he will recompense you for the good you do, and assure everyone, not to worry. Do we get that?

Islam is so beautiful a religion; it is in tune with human nature and honors freedom of thought. Sadly, a majority of us have not gotten Islam, to the bulls among us, it is enforcement and punishment. Do they realize what 113 of the 114 Suras flow from? He is the creator, he is closer to us than our jugular veins, and he understands and knows us and wants us to behave to keep his creation in harmony.

May Allah just give us the capacity to think or take the brain back for lack of use.

Jazak Allah Khair

Mike Ghouse
Muslims Together building cohesive societies.